Do garages need tougher regulations?

Absolutely. One area where Trading Standards have trouble. ALL businesses should have by law a registration which shows a competence and insurance to protect the customer. They should be required to show it to all customers. It should be illegal to sell services etc on the doorstep Many are duped.
Many car repairs like household repairs etc verge on criminal but then apparently so do Bankers and bankrupts but thats all legal and fair too.
Governments only interest is keep the money going round, how is of no concern to them.
All said there are some good service traders. My car recently developed a fault similar to one it had 18 months ago. I took it back in and they said the same part had failed. Lets face it they could have told me anything ! It was replaced FOC under 2 years part & labour warrantly at the franchise dealer I use. Vorsprung durk technic as they say !!

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Yes, - I think they do need much tougher regulation. Someone on BBC Breakfast this morning suggested something similar to the "Corgi" scheme for Gas Fitters. Great idea.

Something else that needs looking at (apart from missing faults) is the issue of finding unnecessary work to do.

I just hate garages and am just paranoid about them.

I can take a new car in for a first service, and upon its return, there are bits that are just not the same, even a minor little vibration noise or whatever happening. Noises/faults etc ALWAYS happen after a service.

Some problems, noises, vibrations or whatever are as if garages have purposely done something to the car which will loosen over a short time and which results in going back to the garage, or another, for investigation, or further work, even having tyres changed or exhaust can result in tinkering with a car to create future work for a garage, tyre/exhaust service.

This year, I had a full service on my car, within a month I was on a journey and my oil light came flashing on due to lack of oil. Oil was supposed to have been changed or topped up during service, but just couldnt have been.

Its about time that MUCH greater and regular tests were made on garages and heavy penaltys ensured the WORST and criminal/dangerous offenders/rip off merchents were removed from the industry.

I have a local garage which has looked after my cars for 25 years. The service is excellent and the bills are reasonable. But there are too many car owners who will use somebody who knows somebody to do things on the cheap and too many car owners who are just interested in getting the MOT and think the car is OK for another year.

Qualifications! There should be.

Now that the silly experiment of trying to send everybody to university has hit the buffers, let's have a national network of technical colleges, in which skilled trades are taught.
Yes, it would be "turning back the clock", to a time when tradesmen served proper structured apprenticeships and were equipped with all the necessary skills to work independently, and the customer could be confident that a thorough job would be done.
Today, your car maintenance, brickwork or electrical re-wiring is likely to be done by someone who's just picked up a few tricks of the trade, over time, rather than undergone formal and extensive training.
Imagine your GP being trained like that!

I find most garagages will only do what you tell them to do and charge you according to how many hours their reference book says charge, even if they dont actually work on your car for the recommended amout of time, to do said tasks as they are only really interested in your cash.

Having started my working life as a motor mechanic, I can only say that things don't seem to have changed over the past fifty odd years. Mind, at that time, there was an apprenticeship system, a system which was all too often a way of getting cheap labour without the bother of proper training. It's sad to think that the industry has apparently not improved since my day.

Great Governments competence. You cant fit my gas fire or or electric plug unless your competent industry registered, but you can take my cars brakes & suspension to pieces and put it back together and give me a bill. I can then go on the road and risk others well being.
I wonder how many more are at risk from carbon monoxide as their car wheel coming off? The stats are not so easily matched so do nothing is the option.

Yet again, a report shows that lives are constantly being put in danger. Some, many of these reported garage failures are just pure and blatant negligence and even criminal negligence and even just pure criminality fraud/deception.

What would help, is a basic standard for servicing, which includes specifics.

At the moment, garages can sell bronze, silver, gold Platinum, diamond, etc etc services all meaningless.

If garages fail to adhere to basic and simple check lists then it is not just negligence, it is criminal. If garages charge for something not provided given, it is CRIMINAL. If a garage fails on so many points, it should be INSTANTLY closed down, and have to PROVE that employees have had further training or removed/replaced and that those remaining/replaced can show/prove competance.

What I want to hear from this, is that EACH and EVERY one of these garages which negligently/criminally failed to carry out their duty, is heavily punished.

Even for lieing about topping up screen wash, fine them £1000.00.

If I knew that my life and my familys life had been endangered by such blatant criminality, then I am sorry but I would dish out my own justice because the present system is just a complete failure, and so is state justice systems and I would ensure that such a practice would NOT be continued and endanger others.

If the state fails to act to fully protect citizens, then I believe citizens have an endemic natural right to take action to protect themselves, in whatever circumstance.

Well, the manufacturers should take the responsibility here. In the post war years , basic 'servicing' e.g checking the brake fluid ,oil and water levels,tyre pressures etc. was done by the driver before a long run ,as a common sense thing; i would still do this myself today and all basic servicing.(i assume that a lot of people still do) We've been led along by the manufacturers with so called 'service plans' as if to say "no, you can't change the oil yourself or (lightly) oil the hinges on the doors." After having had my new car so called 'serviced'for three years at a main dealer, i had the most horrendous bill for the first m.o.t. ,for things that should have been...'serviced'!I would suggest getting a manual,educate yourself a little and certainly get used to checking at least the fluids yourself .You certainly shouldn't be paying someone to top-up your windscreen washer bottle, check tyre pressures, wiper blades and light bulbs ...for starters!!!!

It's hard to disagree with Philip (No. 6), but let's not forget the human element. Even the best training is no guarantee that the knowledge will be put into practice. I've had 25 years of excellent service from one garage, a garage which employs well trained and qualified mechanics, but has still needed to be given a reminder now and then of substandard work. I hasten to add that any complaints have always been taken seriously, and acted upon properly. In turn, the garage manager knows there is no quibble about costs, just as long as the car is maintained as it should be, (and as an ex-mechanic, I have a pretty fair idea of what should be means).

Garages really do need to be regulated. Its a real gamble when you chose one and they seem to have carte blanche over what they charge with most of us not really understanding much more than how to check the oil, its a license to print money.

If car insurance is regulated, and most people know all about that, why on earth aren't garages?

Many garages are simply dismal in my experience. The norm is to be disappointed with the work they do. I've even had situations where I've told them what's wrong (e.g binding brake) and they've failed to fix it. Get some new tyres, they scuff your nice alloy rims to bits. And for the pleasure of a basic service on a decent car at a main dealer - e.g simple oil change, replace filters, you can be £400 worse off.

The same goes for many trades - particularly plumbing and building. They seem to expect you to put up with a standard of workmanship which seems fine to them but is often so poor that it fails to reach even the basic standard of the description of the work.

I build race cars for a hobby and we also have 4 cars in the family. Despite having a full workshop with a post lift and pretty much every facility a large garage has when I've been pushed for time I have used several local garages for minor repairs. I have to say the standard of workmanship is hopeless. I have yet to find one who can be trusted with the most basic of repairs. They have all tried to rip me off in one way or another but fortunately I know my subject. God help anyone who doesn't. Regulation and certification is needed, people are driving around in death traps thanks to these garages. I might add that several main dealers I have tried were no better. The last one (Audi) tried to take me for a £1200 for an air bag controller. I bought the part (new) from a third party dealer for £249.00 and fitted it in less than 30 minutes. In conversation with him I found out he actually supplys the dealer!

The problem is sloppy workmanship ,I took my new car in for its first service got home all water coming out bottom of engine , took it back o there is nothing wrong sir how come leak has stopped then ? it must be the air con ?? what drivel that was a Ford dealer not going there again !! same applies to gas servicing engineer forget to turn up then parts not refitted what the hell is going on ?? I first started work at North Thames Gas where a proper City and Guilds 5 year course ensured you were trained and competent what happens now dread to think . Whens the next shuttle to leave the planet ??

Doesn't this story come out about every 5 years?
By all means regulate the industry, but let's be careful about it. Governments tend to go over the top and it will become illegal to check your own oil level or change a fuse, let alone your own brake pads or spark plugs.
Remember, the people designing the regulations can afford to pay people to do every job on the car.

This is nothing new - the problem has existed since the time I had my first car during 1966.

There are highly skilled motor mechanics, but they are servicing the exotic cars. They are not going to be working on your Ford.

I always buy a make of car which has good reports as regards its main dealers and that means buying a foreign make.

I think we have the same problem here as we have with builders. Whilst at the top end of the scale you find highly skilled workers who are very bright and professionally qualified you also have the rough-necks who found their way into the trade simply because non-qualified people can be employed to do this work - or do it in a self-employed capacity. They are incapable of ever being anything else than a "bodger" and look for ways to survive trapped in that standard.

There are a lot of cowboy garages out there that need VERY strict controls. In some cases shutting down.
I am very lucky, I have dealt with our local garage now for 16 years with not one complaint.

Several years ago my father in law who is a trained motor mechanic was asked by a friend to do the 4th service on her new car. The previous three had been done by the garage that supplied the car, which was (and still is) the major franchise dealer in the area.

My father in law discovered that the split pins holding the rear brake pad cover in place had never been removed. He knew this as they were the factory (yellow) split pins supplied to all new vehicles.

This means that during the previous 3 services the rear brake pads had not been inspected. This was part of the service and paid for.

He went to the garage and told them in uncertain terms what they had been doing, for which the manager duely appologised.

On this occasion nothing onerous happened. The mechanic proberbly thought that as the car was new there would be no problem with the rear brakes. Still it should have been done and was charged for.

This was a major car dealership. If they do not fully control their mechanics how are we to trust other less prestigious garages.

I use a garage that specialises in Citreon cars to work on my Citreon C3. They are not too large, friendly and helpfull service. They are not cheap, but to be fair I would rather they did a good job than one where they cut corners.

Most people these days do not know much about cars. My father in Law retired almost 20 years ago and now knows very little about what goes on under the bonnet.

Garages, like builders can be set up by anyone, no qualifications required. Modern cars are now so complex that the possibility of home maintenance is no longer possible, I even have to go to a garage to change the headlight bulbs!

I would say that all motor manufacturers run training schemes for their cars. My Father in Law was trained by a major manufacturer on their cars and lorries. Should it not be the case that all garages should employ mechanics trained by at least one of the major manufacturers?

They certainly do need tighter regulation. I try to give my business to local people where possible. I started taking my car to a local garage and was given the assurance that all parts used were genuine manufacturers parts. It materialised that on some repairs second-hand parts had been used, and on one brake repair, they hadn't the correct part so they bodged a brake pipe by making a join. It was only when I took my car to another garage for an M.O.T. that all the bodges and cheap skate tricks came to light. The only way you're going to catch these rogue garages is to make regular unnanounced checks on work being done and participation by customers on recent past work done.

I've certainly experienced poor service from garages, although more from main dealers than anywhere else.

These days I tend to stick to a good local garage I trust. The only downside with that is you don't get a main dealer stamp in the log book.

It's partly because of the alleged value of the main dealer stamp that some of them can get away with giving poor service; they know people will come back just for the stamp on their service history.

I've found word of mouth the best way to locate a reliable garage, so my advice is to ask around when choosing who to use to service your car.

Not all main dealers are bad of course - the Honda garage in this area was excellent.

In my 40 years of owning cars from runabouts to a variety of sports cars and high performance saloons I can honestly say that I have never had an issue with any of the garages that I have used. I have only used garages which have either come recommended by word of mouth or by overall reputation. I think a lot of people try doing things on the cheap and get what they pay for. If you look after your car it will look after you.

I don't have much problem with garages as I do all the general servicing myself and only take it in for specific jobs. That way you get a price and the job gets done for that price. I can see that some dodgy workshops may take advantage of naive customers but it's up to the customer sometimes to know what's going on with their vehicle or at least get a few quotes for work. The number of people that haven't got a clue about how their vehicle works are the ones that I find scary and a danger on the road.

Regulation is one thing. But who will do it? Education is another. But who teaches?

Having lost one car as a result of brake work charged for but not carried out, with another having no a/c as a result of service work charged for and not done, caused as a result of an insurance approved repairer (with whom I had no choice in using) damaging parts unaffected in an accident I would be very interested in regulation. It has too often been my experience that garages fix faults by trial and error, at my cost. And that cost has more than doubled per hour of late.

Please bring back simple and easy to maintain car designs. Then I would do it myself. Maybe not ideal, but at least know that work has been done.

Life isn't fair. There will always be tradesmen who choose to take advantage of those with less knowledge/skills be it garages, electricians, plumbers etc.

Legislation does not cover this, and trading standards is too late. What might work is a consumer version of eBay/Amazon customer feedback/reviews. Difficult to police and maintain fairness but probably the best way forward.

Has anybody else noticed that since about the time they revamped HYS (when they scrapped the "recommend" buttons, etc), that they have rather slipped into "scraping the bottom of the barrel" mode vís-a-vís topics for debate? Though I must confess that when I read "Do garages need tougher regulations? " I thought they were talking about that small building at the side of my house full of rusting tools, lawn mower and remains of a 1960's Ford Zodiac. . .

I can remember a Friend who had a nearly new car from a main Dealer. It had a persistant fault. The Mechanics were just guessing what was wrong with it an replacing expensing electronic components one by one at my friends expense in case it fixed it. Eventually having paid an absolute fortune to these people she went to an independent Auto electrician who diagnosed and fixed a Dry Soldered joint on a power lead from a fuse. When hot caused a voltage drop and caused many shared circuits to fail. Pity she didnt visit this man before.!

I only use main dealers for buying or servicing , I was conned once by a non dealer garage never again they are a law unto them selves with no respect for any customer ,
main dealers have their reputation at stake and want customers to come back ,ok they6 may be expensive but at least youare sure to have any job done properly ,I have used teh same dealer for many yerars and they respect that and give a good deal ,particularly when i change cars ,

Car manufacturers should make car maintenance simpler (like it used to be) so that you could actually learn how to fix your own car, or at least have an idea what was going on.

Nowadays its all computerised and not something the public can get their hands on - so if course there will be plenty of cowboys around.

I guess its the old story - go with someone who has a good reputation and has been recommended.

Using an accredited main dealer is no guarantee of good service either. In my experience they can be over-priced and unhelpful.

I concur with a previous poster about Honda, though. In my area the service I have received from them on a second-hand Jazz has been excellent.

(I have no connection with Honda, by the way.)

There certainly need to be higher standards, Fast fit places lie, telling you things are wrong when they're not to get you to spend money needlessly, other garages ignore things that they don't make easy money on which explains most of things in the article when coupled with the fact they don't tend to do general checks for those kind of things because if a mechanic is doing that then he's not doing the next paid job. Most of the faults on the Which test cars are things they wouldn't make money on.

17. At 10:18am on 23 Aug 2010, paddinton53 wrote:

Remember, the people designing the regulations can afford to pay people to do every job on the car.

And claim it back off the taxpayer no doubt !!

My sister took her car in for a service, they broke her central locking and despite admitting liability, charged her for fixing it!

The trouble with garages is that most consumers (myself included) are unable to make well informed choices so the normal rules of competition don't apply, i.e. it is very difficult for customers to tell which businesses offer poor service and bad value for money.

The garages I've used are all pretty good to be fair.

And I know a bit about basic car mechanics to start off with, so I would probably be able to spot if my cars brake fluid was at the minimum level; the spare tyre was flat; a reversing light bulb had blown and if there was low pressure in the nearside rear tyre.

Yes you would hope garages will pick up on these things, but isn't it the responsibility of the driver to make sure the car is roadworthy?

You take a car for it's MOT once a year. These things need looking at all year.

Is this another case of those that moan about a nanny state wanting more protection from things they can take care of themselves I wonder?

And #2 - love the footnote to your post.

Do garages need tougher regulations?

In all truth and reality- NO.

They just need current laws to be upheld and punishments implemented accordingly to facilitate good and decent behaviour, which is/was the WHOLE purpose of such laws very inception.

It is a pure fact, that we have just so many regulations and laws in this country, its just that the regulatory/ policing/criminal justice systems are a complete and utter shambles and not fit for purpose.

If you take, receive money via blatantly fraudulent/deceptive pretences of providing goods or service, then that is a purely a criminal act and NOT just a consumer disagreement or an issue for county court.

If a garage defrauds money from a customer, it is no different to an old age pensioner being defrauded by devious salespeople.

We do not need more regulations for garages, or for national drinking problems or for many many other problems/issues, we JUST NEED current existing LAWS/regulations to be upheld/maintained.

Basically, the regulatory and criminal justice system in UK is relatively NO different to many terrible private services etc. The pure and simple fact, is that the UK present regulatory and criminal justice system is as DIABOLICAL and NOT FIT for PURPOSE as many of these garages, which is the main and central reason WHY so many of these attrocious garages still exist and standards are so LOW.

My family have used a local garage for years. The quality of service is excellent compared to the local Ford dealership (which we had to endure whilst under warranty). I recently had to take a damaged wheel along after I hit a pothole. The tyre was undamaged, as was the hubcap. They knocked the wheel back into shape (the advantage of steels over alloys) and rebalanced it. When I asked how much, they simply said that they knew the family and it the job was a freebie. Gave the lad that did it a fiver for his troubles.

With regards to the actual survey, there is no statement as to what instructions were given when the car was handed over. If you send the car in with a broken windscreen wiper it is unlikely that they will check everything else. After all, they will charge for time spent, and if you then don't want to pay for time spent looking over the rest of the car then you would be pretty upset if that happened.

Finally, a deflated rear tyre is as reflective of the owner as it is of the garage. If you are not prepared to look after your car properly then you are also a danger to the general public. Supposing your brake fluid was below the minimum and you weren't due a service for another six months? You could be driving a deathtrap without any knowledge of the fact. People need to learn basic responsibilities. Checking these things is not difficult and only takes a few minutes.

16. At 10:17am on 23 Aug 2010, Ken B wrote:
"The problem is sloppy workmanship ,I took my new car in for its first service got home all water coming out bottom of engine , took it back o there is nothing wrong sir how come leak has stopped then ? it must be the air con ?? what drivel that was a Ford dealer not going there again !! same applies to gas servicing engineer forget to turn up then parts not refitted what the hell is going on ?? "

Well said, Sir! You can't beat HYS for a well reasoned and balanced argument. If your grammar and punctuation is anything to go by perhaps you should consider a career as a motor mechanic!

The garages ought to be named & shamed.

Ah ha! Gone of the days of the little grease monkey putting grease around a grease nipple to indicate to the customer it had been done.
Now we are into ticked boxes and computer services. If it doesnt show red on the computer then it has to be ok...tick box.
Maybe this survey only applies to large establishments where ticked boxes occur or is it the where the smaller establishments do not have the expertise or time to do the job properly.

The items suggested that were wrong were probably not anything to do with the job being done.
Was it MOTs they dont say here, if so then the garage is at fault.

Generally speaking Low brake fluid, light out and low tyre pressures are the responsability of the owner not the garage. In the same breath a good garage would run the rule over a car before giving it back.

My experience is that if you want a proper job you either go to a main dealer who charges the earth (and sometimes still gets it wrong) or to someone you know who operates from their front garden.

Trouble is the latter are fast disappearing as cars are deliberately constructed to require special equipment and tools.

The ones to avoid are the cheaper workshop organisations.

Sharp intake of breath!

I'm very happy with the service I get from a local garage, the mechanics are mostly bikers who race professionally and take great pride in their work. A little more expensive than some but you know you are getting a good job done and they are honest with you.

Not all like this, and sometimes the so called high class "Posh" chains are the worst.

I had a brand new company car in a previous job on which the bonnet release cable snapped. I took the car into a "Posh" chain as recommended by the company I worked for. They phoned me with the bad news the next day, one of their mechanics was trying to release the bonnet with a screwdriver and had put it through the radiator, but don't worry Sir we'll replace the radiator free of charge.

6 months later and the car was consistantly losing water, eventually I had to take it back to the same "Posh" garage chain, where the Head Mechanic came and spoke to me.
He literally took a sharp intake of breath and said in way that made clear that he was the man and I was an idiot & I quote,

"See that's what you get for taking your car to a bunch of cowboys, someone has gummed up a hole in your radiator, it's a real amateurish job, you shouldn't take your car to cowboy garages"

To be honest it was a dream come true for me as I was able to say to him,

"Well that may be so mate but the only garage that this car has ever been for work in is this one"

The look on his face was priceless.

Just goes to show, a "Posh" appearance and so called quality chain doesn't guarantee quality service and honesty.

Bit like the new Government

This story does seem to come around with alarming regularity.

My own experience is ok, but when I buy a car, I always check for customer satisfaction not just with the car, but the dealer network.

It seems odd to me that so much of what we do is subject to regulation nowadays, but not car repair.

Cars are, potentially, a lethal weapon. A poorly maintained car can kill its occupants and other road users.


I would welcome a system in which apprenticeships, good training, and tight regulation, were the norm. But governments are very open to lobbying, and it's always seemed to me that some industries, notably finance, defence, construction, automotive, seem to get things their way.

The moment the govt even considered tighter regulation, expect squeals about the 'nanny state' from Tory backbenchers.

This report seems to have struck a chord with many on here, although I would question whether it is reasonable to expect a garage to check the spare tyre (unless it is actually required by the service schedule). Surely the owner has some obligations in maintaining his vehicle? And the report does seem a tad over-dramatic...anything can be life threatening if looked at pedantically enough. That said, it is obviously unfair for any customer to be charged for work that has not been undertaken. I have used independent garages for years and if I have been let down (and I mean badly, not just a one off human failing) by one, I simply go to another. There are good ones out there. The problem for many motorists nowadays is that we are often tied in to using the supplying dealer for at least the first few years of a vehicles life unless we want to be threatened with loss of warranty cover. This can lead to cavalier treatment from dealers who have in effect a captive audience, whilst they at the same time are under pressure from above to keep costs down to a bare minimum (the target mentality). Another poster has already suggested a sort of CORGI scheme for garages. I believe one already exists under the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders in the form of their Motor Industry Code of Practice for Service and Repair scheme.If you choose a workshop covered by that then you will have some comeback at least in theory. There will most likely be costs involved to the members of such a scheme however and these will be passed on to the motorist in the form of higher labour rates, no doubt prompting cries of 'Rip Off!' from the cynical.

..main dealers!!... Take your car in with a 'stock' fault (and most manufactured things have 'stock' ,materials or design faults)and it's like your car is the only car that's ever had that particular (say rattly gear stick) problem! "Oh dear sir, whatever could that be? Might take some time to sort that out sir". Reception desks!! ...An expensive and dubious communication barrier between you and the mechanic.(well, actually between you and any service charging a lot....protection!) I was charged for a new expensive (original manufacturer's part..don't get me started on that racket!) replacement battery once.It was listed on the invoice after a "just out of warranty sir" type 'service' among a few other things...i checked uner the bonnet and under a further cover to see the original, perfectly ok ,battery. "Sorry sir ,must have been some mistake"! Main dealers huh?..you don't go back , simple as that! Do they ever end up in court these people? I guess we're all too used to it now.

Garages have a licence to print money and some of those who operate these businesses are unscrupulous. Even main dealers aren't immune. My local dealer told me my rear brake disks needed doing. I drove out of the garage and 200 yards up the road I went into Kwik Fit. The mechanic there took the rear wheels off and showed me the disks; they have about 1cm of thickness on them.
They are crafty though; no written record of the disk condition was on my service summary; the receptionist told me the mechanic had told her the disks were borderline.

These figures are worrying.

We pay enough for cars and car repairs as it is and surely its our right as consumers to get thorough checks.

My MOT is due on Friday and I always dread this time of year because it will cost me £100s - I've never had an MOT less than £120.

I won't buy a brand new car because I won't commit to finance but to find out things maybe getting overlooked really does make me wonder if I should change my way of thinking.

I did the book keeping for my local garage for 21 years, in all that time there was never a single complaint, it is now in separate ownership and again customers do not have any reason to complain. it is an MOT Test station, services and maintains most makes of vehicles, has a tyre fitting service and is 100% reputable.

Next door is a car sales site selling 'good' used cars, these it transpires are mostly insurance write offs, unskilled, unqualified young men work on these cars, they are probably uninsured. There are numerous unhappy customers who have bought a car only to find that within days or weeks a fault develops.

One hopes that eventually action will be taken to close this business down before someone is injured as a result of driving one of their cars.

"Every year the great government scam "The M.O.T. test" a evil con trick done to every private car owner, My car would run with out a hint of trouble, but fail the test every time? every time? . many Garages who do the test are crooks and tax collectors, Many say they do the work but dont' Wheel bearings ? greased not replaced is one of the best cons they are so many others, to the less than honest grease- monkeys!!! More regs wont stop them.

If you are told by any garage that x, y or z needs replacing, insist on seeing the old parts before paying.

An undercover investigation into UK car garages suggests the vast majority miss simple mechanical faults, consumer watchdog Which? has said. Has this been your experience?

Yes, garages often don't pick up on any unreported problems with a vehicle, which hasn't been reported by the driver/owner beforehand, which if the driver/owner is not mechanically minded may not know about. As regards more regulation; possibly, but certainly a proper nationaly recognised qualification is called for, just having a C&G in engineering doesn't necessarily make you a qualified mechanic - there are many dicsiplines of engineering.

Many garages I have taken cars to in the past used to employ semi-skilled labour, nothing wrong with that if they are working towards an attainable qualification in Automotive Engineering and are under proper qualified instruction/supervision, as with apprentices.

As a retired electro-mechanical engineer, years ago, in fact more years ago than I care to remember, I was working for a road haulage company that folded many years ago as a diesel engineer - I gained qualifications whilst in the RAF - I was shocked then by the number of people then employed to maintain heavy trucks who were not qualified to work on such vehicles, but this was, surprisingly, normal practice in those days.

I rather think that has been tightened up with commercial and PSV vehicles, however I am still aware that using semi-skilled labour is still commonly practiced by many well respected garages.
But having said all that, there is semi-skilled, and there is semi skilled - much in the same way that there are managers, and again there are managers, contradictory? not really, those that excell at their job and those that do not.

With the high average charges per hour for garages, I still do the basic maintenance of my vehicle myself and will continue to do so.
But one thing I learnt meny years ago, a good mechanic is like a bar of gold, much as a good builder, plumber or electrician, you look after them as they will look after your services, it is here that word of mouth promotes a good qualified skilled craftsman more than any advertising will ever do.
One mechanic I have used for very many years, he is part of a 'two man band' to coin a phrase, as an ex-racing engineer I know that anything that needs doing over and above the normal service he will do without being asked, unless it is an expensive item then he always phones.
He always kept the 'old part' to show me why it needed changing/repairing, not very many large garages will do that, I think they should.

But if we are to go down the road of having a recognised national qualification for working as a qualified mechanic, then surely it should be the same for working as part of a maintenance team on the railways - which it used to be when under the control of British Rail - how many fatal crashes since privatisation?
Qualifications for working on aicreaft have always been very strictly controlled, licences for working on different aircraft, or an area of different aircraft, being issued only by the CAA - Civil Aircraft Authority, with retests on a regular basis.

Do garages need tougher regulations? Yes and so do the banks and other financial institutions.

Yes, you have two types, rubbish and we make them up as we go along. They have turned inconsistency into an artform!

All this user's posts have been removed.Why?

I did had a reliable local garage, the owner of which went out of his way to make sure all was well with my car before I drove it away. Like all people he had his weaknesses, not that great on in-car electrics being one, but on the mechanics side excellent. He, being the same age as me (sixties) has now retired, and the outfit that has taken over aren't in the same league, so the search is on for a garage I can trust.
Since Which? Magazine has started this campaign, I could do worse than log on to their website and scout out some recommendations. And no, they aren't a 'special interest' group, the readership set the direction of investigations and write reviews of local services. When it comes to cars it's as well to follow my late father's advice given to me shortlly after I bought my first rust bucket: "It's a good idea to look under the bonnet once in a while." At least then you can look at the obvious before letting a mechanic loose on it. Regards, etc.

I'm a reasonably competant mechanic so do most of the work myself, generally if a car fails the MOT then I let the garage to fix the problem, I also go to fast fit places for tyres & exhausts.

When I moved to this area about 20 years ago I had an old Mini, a common problem with the old style drum brakes on these cars was getting them adjusted tight enough to be sure of passing the MOT without being so tight they binded and overheated.
For the first MOT here I went to a nearby garage, they failed the car on a leaking brakepipe, I'd checked the all the brake pipes and knew they were sound but it was one of the few brake pipes that hadn't been renewed so I let them replace it without comment. Afterwards When I drove the car away, I came to a junction, I braked and nothing happened. My brakes, which had worked perfectly when the car went in, now barely worked at all.
The next year I went to the garage of a well known motor parts chain. They claimed the master brake cylinder needed replacing, I pointed out that the master brake cylinder was almost brand new (I'd replaced it along with many other brake components as a precautionary measure after the previous years fiasco) They then (correctly) decided that there was very minor problem with the adjustment of one brake shoe which cost a couple of pounds to fix rather than the hundreds they had wanted to charge for the master cylinder. I think this was a genuine mistake but its one that could have cost me a lot of money and it was obvious that the master cyliner was reasonably new.
The next year I went to a well known fast fit fast fit chain. After they thought I'd gone away, the mechanic having checked and found nothing wrong, got in the car, put the hand brake on and bunny hopped the car round their very large garage area for five minutes or more till the brakes were cooking and failed it on binding brakes.
Having allowed the brakes to cool I tried a local garage who I've stuck with ever since, they're not perfect they've made minor mistakes but nothing on a par with the ones above and I don't come away feeling that I've been conned as I did with all the ones above.

I've been using a local garage for the past fifteen years and have had no problems whatsoever with them. My only negative experience was once when I needed an MOT and the aforementioned garage was booked up so I had to take it to one of the well known national car/tyre centres. My car failed and I was promptly informed it needed about four hundred pounds worth of work doing on it, I waited a couple of days and then took it to my normal garage where it was looked at and sorted out, I was presented with a bill for £110 and that included the test fee. Unfortunately there are unscrupulous and shoddy garages out there who will either miss problems or invent them, my only advice is listen to people recommendations, the quality garages always seem to have a loyal following.

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Regulation has been needed for decades, everyone said it, and so why is it now a burning issue?

The reason for this cutting corners is basically our own fault. We dont complain enough. We are too good at listening to the utter lies our masters tell us that we are afraid to complain.

If you pay for a service you should recieve that service or the service that has neglected its duty should be brought to compliance and or fined.

We need more tougher financial penalties on businesses that cut corners. Then again small businesses are being hammered by brutal faceless market forces as we all are.

Maybe the next time you vote tory and hence deregulation you will think again......for they are putting YOUR life at risk.

Everything in Britain today serves the Interests of the mega Rich and the City, nothing including your safety on the road matters.

Personally I blame the British voter for putting his faith in market forces and not in fairness, conscience and common sense.

Where I live now,I have a very good local family run garage who I trust to do work honestly and properly and for a fair price.

However,with previous garages I've had issues with servicing done very sloppily [ eg massive oil leak from a filter not screwed on properly,clutch went again days after being replaced,filters and plugs not replaced as billed for,repairs that went wrong again within hours. I even recall a motorcycle dealer who refused to release my bike until I paid him for the same repair twice in 2 days!]I'm also suspicious about unneccessary repairs being advised by garage chains whose staff work on a commission basis. It is about time that local authorities got to grips with shoddy,unscrupulous and dishonest garages and I'd have no objection to them being caught by 'test' cars and taken to court. Whilst safety has to be a main concern of such investigations,I'd suggest that dishonesty is also a major problem in some parts of the motor trade.

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Ken B #16 - the garage may have been correct. If your air con is on and the set temperature is at minimum, you can get often water condensing and freezing onto the air con vanes, just like on a domestic freezer. When you stop, the heat from the engine melts the frozen water very quickly and it drips down under the engine. You can see this phenomenon at motorway service stations in the summer, with many cars having puddles of water under them.

My experience of garages is mixed, and I have encountered all the problems posted here off an on over 40+ years of car ownership. In my Morris Minor and Triumph Herald days I did all my own servicing and repairs and learnt a huge amount from Haynes manuals. Nowadays this is not possible because of the sophistication and computerisation of modern cars.

My strategy is to buy a car from a small dealer and always go back to them for servicing and repairs, building up a good relationship with the sales staff and mechanics. If I have a problem I persistently and firmly insist that things are put right. If I get good work, I offer praise and encouragement.

My current car is 9 years old and has only ever been serviced by one small dealership from new, even though they have now changed franchise. All the staff and mechanics know me and I know all of them by first name. Often small things are done free of charge because they know they get at least one £250 service per year from me.

The other thing I do is to make sure that I have checked and prepared the car as best I can before the service so that it looks immaculate and everything is working and tyres and fluids are optimal. I feel that if the mechanics can see you are looking after your car, they will too, and if they know you personally, they will not rip you off.

I believe though, that a national accreditation system should be put in place with random inspections as well as 'mystery customers' with specially prepared cars like Which? use. The person who checks and prepares your brakes literally has your life in their hands and their competency must be assured. Heavy fines must be levied on garages which persistently underperform.

There are good garages and bad garages, and often how professional they look is independent of how good they are. I would rather deal with a dirty back street garage where the mechanic will happily let me under the car to show me something he has found than some main dealer who employs someone to stop me talking to the mechanics.

More regulation just means larger bills, or the same size bills with more of the time wasted fiddling round the regulations.

All the faults listed by wich are the owners responsibilit,if you can't inflate a tyre or change a bulb you should not have a licence.stop complaining and do the basics your self,(you may need to read the owners manual)?.
O mummy how do I change a tyre mine is flat.
Mummy it is ok it is only flat at the bottom.

Of course the downside of such regulation would be that servicing would take longer and therefore cost more, as the garage would spend time checking things that were ok.
At the end of the day Drivers have to take some responsibility. The things that are quoted really should be looked at or know by the driver before he takes a vehicle in for a service. If one of your light bulbs has blown it is unlikely to have happen 5 minutes before your car went in for service. As service intervals can be 12000 miles or 12 months which ever is the longer, are drivers saying they would not spot a blown fuse between services, and potentially drive around for 12 months within not working. Equally you would have to be a fool not to check your tyre pressures, including spare regularly, because what happens if it is 8 or 9 months since your last service and you then get a flat tyre.

An MOT is not worth the paper it is wrote on,it is only valid at time of testing ounce you leave the testing station for get it.

Yes, definitely, In June I took my car to be checked out for Foreign travel and was given the all clear, three weeks ago I had my car MOT'd again passed with no problems. I took it to be under sealed on the 16th August and have now been told it is a death trap a cross member was so badly rusted that it could have snapped at any time. I have been using this garage for a while and thought I had found one I could trust.

It sounds as if something wasn't properly tightened up, but it would be interesting to know if MrWonderfulReality ever bothers to check the oil level in his car - something he should do every week or so, along with tyre pressures etc - rather than doing nothing until a warning light appears. We all share a responsibility before heading out on the road.

I also think banks and other financial institutions need far more regulation as a priority.

I used to use a local garage but that one always gave me my car back with something wrong with ignition or carburettor. It was fixed FOC but I became fed up of the imposed faults.

Changed to Main Dealer with "new" car - the service is far better though more expensive - but not perfect. As far as I can tell it has virtually nothing to do qualifications but all to do with conscientiousness in doing the work as is normally described in the Garage Repair Manual). Nor does qualifications stop "rip offs"

One problem now is cars are controlled or monitored by 'computers' making DIY repairs far more difficult.

One example of over price is a new key for my car - they charge £60 for the key and "validating" the key. Validating is just turning the new key three times in the ignition. Yet I can't buy the key cheaper on it's own.

But there are no guarantees that other sorts of work is done competently as there are many cowboys - Again nothing to do with qualifications.

I used to teach Electrical Craft Practice - the difference between those that scraped a pass and those that could pass well was staggering - Many of those "competent" ones I wouldn't trust to do a good job for me. A good number of the "scrapers" I would trust without question.

Regulations and their associated penalties do nothing but increase the cost of whatever is regulated and provide more non jobs that someone has to pay for.
A flat spare tyre, blown reversing light bulb, brake fluid at minimum level and a tyre at lower than recommended pressure are not exactly important issues assuming the low tyre pressure was not visually noticeable. All those faults are the responsibility of the driver to check weekly, see owners handbook.
Unless you are willing to pay £450 plus for an annual service, the cost for a Honda Civic at main dealer, then you will not get time spent on your vehicle. Purchasing an oil change service for your car will not cover the cost of checking a vehicle thoroughly.

The survey would suggest so YES. its hard to argue the other way when presented with such facts and figures.

It would be good to know more about the garages tested and be given a breakdown of the results i.e. dealer garages, independents, urban garages, rural garages etc.

I also wonder if the garages were informed of their result, I hope so! Those that failed would surely get their act together. Also those that failed are actually breaking several laws I would suggest.

It's good to see that in most tests more passed then failed. So lets see that as a small positive perhaps. The fail rates are too higher though so some tough action is required.

Maybe its missed becuase its doesnt generate much in the way of profit.

I have struggled to fnd a reputable garage that you can trust without going to the ones affiliated with car manufacturers which charge so much per hour.

Car Manufacturers also charge more for parts than its costs to produce a complete car.

what we need is less rules and regulations in the world, not more. we live in a nanny state where charters and quangos (the environment agency as a case in point) are destroying buisness and ruinining people's lives

..comment 15 good man!...'air bag controller' £1,200 ! That really sums it all up.Yes, they can be bought a bit cheaper can't they?! I used to get main dealer's parts counter staff looking really sheepish in response to the price of some Renault spares that used to reveal themselves after a few button pushes on the computer!(I used to laugh at some of the prices.) "Well i wouldn't pay that sir...(£75.00)not for a bit of air hose..a bit of hose ? , why don't you just tape it up!" I did!

Of it does. We the customer need protecting against big business.

Big business's first priority is to make as much money out of the customer as possible.

The problem we have is that we have a tory government. The tories first priority is to help big business, they will not be interested in regulating big business, in the same way as they were not interested in regulating the banks.

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I used to attend a franchise dealer regularly, mainly because it was a condition of the car's warranty. Mostly, they were good, but I was pig-sick on the day I Ianded with a £1,600 bill for an MoT/Service which highlighted that the fuel pump was faulty. I authorised the work with a heavy heart and the car was returned as perfect ... with both headlights blown. You do wonder how closely your vehicle is serviced when something as obvious as that happens.
Once the warranty expired, I began taking it to the local Greasy Joe's in the village: two-thirds of the price and great personal service. They often do quick minor work for no charge. Support the little guys.

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Personally I favour the nationwide autocentre chain (although have had good experiences with Kwik Fit and National exhausts too). From hard experience I've found that backstreet garages being owned by the mechanic have a vested interest in charging you for as much as they can get away with and getting any compensation from them normally requires trading standards. The main dealers charge a premium for being main dealers. The high street chains on the other hand are all on wages, not a percentage of what they charge the customer, the prices are all on the wall and most are affiliated to the AA or RAC.

Nationwide give you a check list of common faults at each service which reduces the chances of anything being overlooked by the mechanic.

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I think the real problem is that with many businesses they have no ethics and have no conscience when dealing with customers. You can include garages, building trades, financial services, energy companies who are happy to rip off customers. The problem with regulation is identified in comment 17. Because I regularly check oil, coolant, screen wash, brake fluid, tyres etc. I do not want to find I can no longer carry out these basics because I am not registered and my premises do not meet some standard or other. Main dealers usually have well qualified staff and good premises but whether the working environment encourages these staff to do a proper job is another matter entirely. There is a problem but I am am sceptical that any government regulation would be the answer. There are honest garages out there, if you find one stay with them.

I had my work experiance (4 years ago) at a well known Vauxhall garage. I was quite shocked how customers' cars were treated. On one occation a modified car was lifted in the air by its side skirts as the mechanic couldn't be bothered driving it to another ramp that could accomodate the ride height off the car. Clips broke off and he just said oh well he shouldn't have a stupid car...

A friend of mine also works for Volkswagen and by the sounds of it they dont treat the customers cars very well either!

A big problem that i have found is that garages dont listen to you. Few years ago I bought a second hand car and took it back almost immediately with a severe knocking sound on turning corners. They replaced the power steering belt and said its not under warranty as non necessary I said hows that causing the noise reaction we know best attitude drove off the next day went out bracked and car veered across road main suspension tie arm had detatched luckily I had just passed a lorry going the other way or I shudder. Took it straight back and had tie arm reattatched pure incompitence I thought and they wouldnt refund for un necessary work ! Really there should be a system of rating a garage like a hotel which can then easily have its rating reduced so a customer has an idea of how good it maybe, but as warrranty work is often tied to main dealer this may not be practical if a known good dealer was say 25 miles plus away so we put up with poor "service" as often there is no practical alternative locally!

Yes totally. A recent experience for us left us with a £500 bill for a repair that wasnt picked up in the service before the MOT. We were told it was a serious fault and we should have had it fixed. When we told the MOTer that their own mechanic didnt mention it, he said oh well you cant have the car back until you pay up and its fixed.
The whole industry is flawed and open to fraud. Most people accept this and make allowences for it, but lets face it, we shouldn't have to.

True, but sometimes garages fail to act on an issue when their attention is specifically drawn to it.

I took my car to a garage from a chain of garages known nationwide, with regards to a grinding noise & sensation when braking. Obviously I wanted to ensure that the car was safe, and that the brakes weren't being damaged.

When collecting the car I asked about the brakes and was told there wasn't a problem. Within a month of this I took the car in to the same garage for its MOT. The car passed, and once again I asked about the brakes, and whether anything had needed to be done (reiterating the noise & sensation during braking). I was told that nothing needed to be done - they were fine.

The brakes became quite bad, with braking performance impaired quite significantly. I started using my wife's car for my commute, and booked my own car in for an inspection once more. On collecting the car I was told that I was "lucky, as any longer like that and new discs would need to be fitted". I honestly couldn't believe that it took 3 visits before they addressed a serious issue, each time having been requested to check the brakes, and had compromised my safety as a result. When I confronted the manager about the situation he refused accept that they had failed to address the issue, and stated that the problem had "probably only just occurred due to the heavy rain experienced recently".

I asked how the car had got through its MOT with defective brakes, and how the staff hadn't experienced the issue for themselves when test-driving the car. I was told that the brakes are only visually inspected, and that no test-drives had taken place with regards to my previous visits.

Needless to say I have never used that garage or any of that particular nationwide brand again.

You are totally at the mercy of the mechanics and trust should be everything. Over the years I seem to have had expensive but relatively good quality service off the big firms and cheap but chancy service off the back alley guys. It should be properly managed in terms of quality and qualification expecially with the way car technology is now.

The experience from Germany who are doing way better than the UK points to the lies of the deregulation lobby. Costs of Garages are being driven up not by pay and conditions but by market forces charging massive rates, energy costs etc. If we had garages and businesses with good conditions and good ethics we would be doing infinately better economically.

This deregulation is driven by ideology and dogma and is costing the driver and consumer a fortune. Your fault, you voted Tory - this lot of amoral cowards are putting the nation into the hands of cowboys. Destroy rights and coerce is the face of a brutal coalition with no economic ethics to guide the nation and make it successful. They want the success of might and markets, the driver and the consumer are unimportant.

I've worked in the motor industry for 24 years so would like to inject some reality:

(1) No car is deliberately designed to need special tools - precisely the reverse is generally the case (as the Dealer has to buy them all!)

(2) Nobody ever reads the manual we spend so much time and effort writing. If you did you would avoid most of the issues quoted here.

(3) The driver for complexity is not the manufacturer but legislation. Your car won't meet Euro 5 or Euro 6 emissions, or Euro NCAP crash ratings, or do 50mpg, or stop hard on a greasy road surface, without all the sophisticated kit. Which needs sophisticated diagnostics.

(4) Routine service intervals are now so long that it's doubly important for the driver to check stuff (see 2).

None of this excuses poor service of course!

We don't need more rules and regulations, we just need a re-think.

Why not treat garages (and you could apply this line of thinking to many other businesses!) like drivers are treated? When a problem is found, punish with a fine, and apply points to the equivalent of their licence.

Four complaints in 12 month equals being banned from operating.

"3. At 09:35am on 23 Aug 2010, Wyn wrote:


Something else that needs looking at (apart from missing faults) is the issue of finding unnecessary work to do."

In '91, the exhaust on my car broke. I limped into a garage. The boss said "It needs a new back end, but we cannot get it off without taking whole exhaust off. I'm afraid you will need to buy the whole system." Naive as I was back then, I told him to go ahead with it.
In 2006, I took my car in the same garage for a pre-mot service, (the first time I had been back to this garage). I had phone call later in the day. He said "You have a hole in the back end of the exhaust, but we cannot get it off without taking whole exhaust off. I'm afraid you will need to buy the whole system." MORE OR LESS, THE SAME WORDS!!
I told him to leave it, I can get someone to do it for me.
I took it for the mot next day, without any looking at the exhaust. It past. There was nothing wrong it.
Wyn, I agree with you 100%.

As someone who knows a mechanic well and does 90% of work myself...Nothing has changed for decades.
Learn to fix as much as you can yourself. Never trust these garages that let hungover trainees mess with your car, that includes the 'respected' main dealers whether German/Japanese/French or whatever. They are all dangerous. Your cars are safer if never touched by these cowboys.

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I have a list of good and bad garages. The bad I will never use in a million years. Sometimes even the good I have to question their cost. I used to service my own cars - partly due to rogue garages but mostly cost, today it is better controlled but I can never see how some justify £50 + per hour and then charge a few hours for a 30 minute job. A good garage has plenty of customers and claiming unnecessary work is not within their interest. As for oil and filter change, it's cheaper to get a garage to do this than yourself, goes to show the rip off prices some of these car accessory shops charge for oil and accessories.

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Yes. This is an area where regulation definately needs to be tightened up.

From previous experience I have found that the top offenders are the dealerships/franchises for the main car manufacturers. I've had one sell me an accident damaged car without disclosing it. One claimed to of serviced a vehcile only for an independant mechanic to verify it was never touched in 3 years. Another simply wasted thousands of pounds of my money, and months, trying to fix a problem that an independant mechanic resolved within an hour. And another sold me a nearly new car with a faulty catalytic converter which they failed to disclose, even though it would of immediately been spotted in their "quality point check" system. Awful behaviour from the main dealers.

It seems the majority of smaller independant garages take a lot more pride in their work and depend on repeat business for their survival. Therefore they take a great deal more care, they have a better relationship with their customers, and they charge a lot less.

Oh for goodness sake! It says something about the simplicity of USING the modern car that people don't even think of it's complexity as a piece of machinery. They turn the key and drive off without the least inkling of what's going on with the many systems that make it work.

It wasn't long ago that "routine maintenance" was part of owning a car. One checked and adjusted oil levels, coolant levels, brake fluid, the car's lamps, plug gaps, tyre pressures and tread (including the spare wheel). The more adventurous would check and deal with the brakes.

Admittedly more can go wrong with modern cars but "simple mechanical faults" ought to be within the reach of every car owner - or enough diagnostic nous to know when something simple like a door catch isn't working properly.

Garage charges are rather high but there's a huge expense in running a repair shop. The variety of cars alone means that considerable experience has to be accrued by mechanics. They need lifts, tyre machines, loads of computer software, masses of tools, airlines etc. Each incoming car is a one-off. Tyre changing and exhaust fitting can be geared more to production but beyond that?

Still, if governments had been more honest about apprenticeships, more school leavers would be encouraged to become apprentices. Surprising that they haven't made it a degree-level study, for what uselessness that would be. Fortunately it is one of those subjects that needs considerable manual and intellectual skills to be good at it; an acumen one might say.

No amount of regulation will make good the shortfall of what owners should know about their cars, nor will it make a mechanic look at absolutely everything...things way beyond "simple machanical faults" but to ensure those too are looked at. Check lists only go so far. Not without a huge price hike to the consumer.

Simply, if you suspect the garage has missed something, take the car back and get it put right. Learn enough about your car to know when garage Reception is giving you BS.

The whole trouble with garages is that they get away with overcharging,not actually repairing faults,telling people lies about faults that dont exist and worst of all making false statements about vehicles when they MOT them to get more work which they then overcharge for,why-because they can and VOSA allow it.Its like one big club all meant to cash in on a very lucrative business. Even when VOSA do spot checks on garages they merely give a rap over the knuckles with a tissue and a wink.Even VOSA is a joke you only have to see how they operate to appreciate they are a law unto themselves and because government dont like upsetting the applecart or are basically to ignorant to understand the system thats operated-they turn a blind eye.