Is Cuba's prisoner release a step to democracy?

Its obvious that the times are changing in Cuba, although its nots yet clear what it will change into.

But now that the chances of the Island infecting the US with communism are absolute zero, maybe its time to end the last vestige of the Cold War.

Lets see the US remove all remaining sanctions against Cuba.

Lets see Cuba given the chance to join us in the 21st century.

As we are living in a country where several people have spent years in jail without charge or trial on "terror reasons" then I don't think we have any right to comment on Cuba until we sort our own house out.

Most of the prisoners are now harmless because many of them are past their sell by date.

We can only hope that this move is made for the right reasons. Time will tell.

"Their release follows talks in Havana with officials from Spain and the Roman Catholic Church"

Good Grief!!!

The BBC is publishing a story where the Catholic Church are not being portrayed as demons and monsters.

I wonder how that slipped through the BBCs Anti-Catholic censors?

I may have to pinch myself as I can't quite believe what I am reading....

It seems like a step in the right direction.. Which is always better than keeping to the wrong path and as such should be wellcomed. In the past Cuba may even have had a point about mercenaries, as we learn about the hidden war with the USA..
It also seems that Spain has accieved more by talking to Cuba, than the USA accieved with all their hidden wars.
Lets hope that this is just a start to bringing Cuba, back to being a true socialist democracy, that looks after all it's citizens, with health care and education.

Could very well be pointing towards the end of this regime and society, it would make sense to start closing down the state machinery if you going to overhaul the system.

The US has long been terrified of having a communist state so close and has waged a constant propaganda war against Cuba. The US also has political prisoners who are in gaol without trial but of course they view that differently. The amusing thing is that when Castro came to power it was predicted that he would not be there long and yet he has seen many presidents come and go. The Cubans were smart in that they got rid of their criminal and drugs barons very early. They fled to US where they surprisingly carried on with their undesirable behaviour. Wish we could do the same.
But the most amazing fact is that it was obvious that Castro was failing in health and yet they managed a peaceful transfer of power. This is almost unheard of in history, if a strong leader fails it is an opportunity for all the disgruntled elements to come to the fore and there is violence. The fact that this didn't happen can only indicate one thing, despite all the rhetoric in the west the Cubans must be quite content. Perhaps it's the fact that they have one of the best health services in the world, even training doctors to work overseas. they have a very good education service and the highest literacy rate in the world. Not bad when you consider where they were under a capitalist system

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

I think this is of little significance. There is just SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH to learn from Cuba.

Like how to cope with and live through a 40 year recession!!!!

Cuba is one of the prime examples of the paranoid totalitarian excesses of communism, but their stance is understandable (not excusable) when they have the home of paranoid capitalist excess just across the water, who have been actively trying for the last 60+ years to return Cuba to the equally undemocratic mafia playground it used to be. The trade embargo is one of the most petty pieces of legislation in history, and the US should lift it immediately in response to these prisoner releases. After all, the US is more than happy to trade with countries such as Saudi Arabia and China, both of which have far worse human rights records than Cuba. A transition to democratic socialism (which does work if the US can keep its hands off) should be the future for Cuba.

I want to see democracy and full human rights immediately in Cuba, but US-style rampanr capitalism is not the way to achieve this. There are better ways, don't believe the right-wing propaganda that says the only way to freedom is through unfettered free-market economics. The free market only breeds gross inequality, the current situation in the UK provides overwhelming evidence for this.

It IS a democracy, a socialist democracy. Just because you right wing, Daily Mail readers don’t like the fact that their democracy involves locking up and eliminating people who have a different opinion is your problem. Seriously though, only when Cuba is freed from the socialist regime will democracy as we know it, be allowed. Until then they will be kept in their socialist, third world paradise. Give the people the vote and see which system THEY choose. That will NOT be allowed as some people are more equal than others in the Animal Farm Cuba.

Phillip of England wrote:
"Their release follows talks in Havana with officials from Spain and the Roman Catholic Church"

Good Grief!!!

The BBC is publishing a story where the Catholic Church are not being portrayed as demons and monsters.

I wonder how that slipped through the BBCs Anti-Catholic censors?

I may have to pinch myself as I can't quite believe what I am reading....

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Phillip thats because the Roman Church are used to talking and making deals with gangsters and thugs! Read your history. I was not indoctrinated from birth so I DO want the TRUTH out in the open, not like some.

Robertloa wrote:
Lets hope that this is just a start to bringing Cuba, back to being a true socialist democracy, that looks after all it's citizens, with health care and education.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Robert, have you ever read Marx and Engels? Have you ever studied the history of the Soviet Socialist Republics, etc? This IS a socialist democracy (also North Korea). One party state run by the people for the people. Just because it NEVER works (and never will) does not stop naive persons thinking it can. Lets not let the truth get in the way of day dreams and wasting their lives on the lie of socialism. What do they teach you at school? Oh, forgot there are many Guardian reading types in the teaching 'profession' so its just complain from armchair pretending to be good people as long as I don’t have to get my hands dirty.

Lets get the situation faced by Cuba in context.
There are (according to the article) a total of 110 political prisoners in Cuba. Many of these prisoners are there on criminal charges or 'anti-terrorist' charges related to the ongoing dirty war executed by the US on Cuba.
The US in particular has sponsored terrorism in Cuba for the last 50 years including a failed invasion (Bay of Pigs), assasination attempts on Cuba's leaders and blowing up a Cubana airliner. Over 3,000 Cubans have been casualties of these actions since the revolution. The US even protects the known perpetrator of the Cubana attack (Posada Carilles) who is living unprosecuted in the US.
So Cuba has a very aggressive neighbour that has a long record in attempting to undermine Cuban society. Cuba has a right to protect itself and self-determination.
I have visited Cuba (independently, not as a packaged tourist), a majority of people there support the government and are happy to say so privately as well as publically. Yes there is some discontent - especially about the economic situation, but that is to be expected given the aggressive blockage imposed by the US in an attempt to bring this proud independent country to its knees and return it to the pre-revolutionary time, where (by the way) there were many more politcal prisoners and frequent extrajudicial killings undertaken by Batista and his US backed cronies
Note also the biggest concentration of political prisoners on the Island of Cuba are the residents of Guantanamo Bay Naval Base - more than 110 there - and they are there through the actions of the US government and its allies. How many politcal prisoners are there in British jails at the moment as a result of anti-terrorist laws (and how many politiccal prisoners were there in Northern Ireland in the 70's, 80's and 90's).
As I said at the begining get this in context and lets have fair and balanced reporting on Cuba.

But the Cuban Commission on Human Rights claims there are still 110 political prisoners in Cuban jails. - BBC.
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Very strange!!!

Media Mugals are highlighting a few hundred prisoners in "Communist" Cuba but keep their mouth shut to the thousands illegally kept behind bars in "democratic" Israeli prisons guarded by British soldiers in Jenin and Jericho without any trial or sentence.

Dare speak for them?

The fact that the Cuban government has agreed to free some political prisoners is quite a good new. The question I'm asking is to know the state of the prisoners to be released. If they are in good health conditions, then that calls for international appraisal but if not, there is no need to free them only to die in no time. I love positive changes.

2. At 11:09am on 08 Jul 2010, yorkshire News wrote:
As we are living in a country where several people have spent years in jail without charge or trial on "terror reasons" then I don't think we have any right to comment on Cuba until we sort our own house out.

================================

Where exactly is Guantanamo bay???? Our house, as you put it (holiday home for suspected terrorists), is smack bang in Cuba.

Unfortunately the only Cubans who will respond to this will probably be descendents of those Cuban exiles that fled the country during or immediately after the popular revolution and as such their views will be highly biased based on the stories published in the western press or handed down.

I think before people pass comment or condemn the Cuban leaders they should read the history of Cuba and then go and visit the country and speak to the people and I suspect that the greatest number of human rights violations in Cuba have been committed by the Americans in their detainee camp at Guantanamo Bay.

Yes the people are poor and have no voting rights or no passports but they do have jobs, somewhere to sleep and food.

If the Cuban leaders lived in gold palaces or committed acts such as ethnics cleansing etc I could understand the perception that they are an oppressive regime but the fact is their polices have ensured the survival of the country both through the USA lead embargo and the collapse of the Soviet Union whilst providing jobs, food, homes and excellent education and health care.

The only reason why Cuba is poor is because of the immature and outdated embargo.

For a country that is anti-imperialist Uncle Sam is still doing its best to control the destiny of Cuba.

As for the Cubans themselves they have to be careful what they wish for. If they opened up the way to capitalism and rich western developers what do they think will happen to the people who live in Havana?

Well, like the dockland areas of many of our cities the people would be evicted to make room for waterside developments for wealthy people whilst they themselves end up in shantytowns on the outskirts of town.

So what about the dissidents, are they US sponsored political prisoners (they wouldn’t be the first) or just people who object to their governments polices?

Hard to say really and the people who know will never admit it but in my view the Cuban leaders are probably doing nothing different to what we in Britain or the Americans would do when they suspect that some one is planning to commit some terrorist act.

Personally I would love to see Cuba open up but I would hate to see it fall victim to the social ills that have befallen the rich western countries.

As for the people themselves they are genuine, proud and lovely people. They work hard and still have great family values and if you wanted to help these people then go there for your holiday and be generous with your tips.

I don't know whether people get this, but Cuban politics is far from being Cuba's biggest problem. The biggest problem is that there is no money. The aid they got from the Communist bloc has in some measure dried up, the demand for their tobacco and sugar is reducing, and whilst their tourist infrastructure is developing it is of necessity being done in partnership with multinationals and so the profit does not all accrue to Cuba. In the meantime when I last visited Havana and Trinidad in 2009 Cuba was the dirtiest I've ever seen it. Piles of rubbish in the streets, some pretty bad smells,and whilst you can get a doctor easily you'll be lucky if they can get you the most basic of antibiotics etc.

So their problem is that they don't have an economy large enough to support the population, and of course this leads back to politics but not Cuban politics, USA politics. Their neighbour has basically frozen them out over the last 50 years whilst pouring money into other political regimes that have proved much more damaging. Of course there is an upside to this in the sense that they don't have Dunkin Donuts and the other trappings of economic invasion, but the price of this is a rapidly worsening infrastructure.

So having a hundred or so political prisoners out of a population of more than 11 million doesn't seem that bad to me and I wonder how other countries compare. So releasing a few doesn't take Cuba anywhere it needs to go.

If the Cuban Government is freeing genuine prisoners of conscience then that is a good thing. The question is whether or not they really are. The idea that they are in fact US sponsored terrorists is entirely plausible. The US has been waging a war of attrition against Cuba for decades -well before Castro came to power. The so-called Spanish-American war of 1898 was in fact a US attack on Cuba and the island was essentially a colony of the US until 1959 when Castro came to power.

What followed was effectively a terrorist war against Cuba with the Bay of Pigs fiasco being just the best known incident. The US blockaded Cuba, put a massive embargo in place, punished smaller states who traded with them and then, when Cuba inevitably turned to the former USSR for help, accused Cuba of being a Soviet pawn.

The embargo has continued to this day despite annual votes by the UN that it should be lifted. Suspected terrorists, like Orlando Bosch and Luis Posada Carriles, continue to live in Miami with impunity. The US harbours terrorists therefore and, were the Bush doctine to be applied, should be bombed for it.

Cuba is not a free society and there is and was much to be condemned. But it is remarkable that a society under such a seige -perhaps the longest in history- has held together so well that it is able to, for instance, send teams of highly skilled doctors to the trouble spots of the world.

It may be a 'new era' for Cuba or it may not be. They may be genuine political prisoners or merely US mercenaries. Whichever the case, before we start passing judgement and pontificating, let's remember Guantanamo Bay -sited on Cuban soil despite protests from its Government. Let's remember the prisoners thrown into the hell holes of Bagram and Abu Graibh. Let's remember the extraordinary rendition flights. Let's also remember the likely UK complicity with torture.

And then let's realise that neither the US nor the UK is any position to pass comment on Cuba's misdeeds.

Is Cuba's prisoner release a step to democracy?
Yes, when the Cuban People can have an affect on th actions of their Government, it is a step towards democracy; that is, rule by the will of the people.
The hunger strikes have had their affect on the Cuban Government; I wonder if hunger strikes would have the same affect on the American Government - all the thousands of “political” prisoners being held around the world – too many of them in unknown places where torture and dying occur.
Cuba has always denied that it has political prisoners, calling them mercenaries paid by the United States to undermine Havana's rule. Do we have the evidence to contradict what Cuba us saying? Are these “political” prisoners really American mercenaries?
March 2003 - 70 ``dissidents'' arrested by the Cuban Government and charged with taking money from a US program which aimed to overthrow the Cuban constitution. Amnesty International and many European states, along with the US government, immediately declared them "prisoners of conscience".
2001-2002 - several hundred "enemy combatants" collected by the US government in Afghanistan and Pakistan and held for many years at Guantanamo Bay. International protest built up, but eight years later, many are still held at Guantanamo without charge, without trial.
1998 - `the Cuban Five'’ arrested in the US and accused of being spies, for passing on information about groups in Florida related to planning terrorist attacks on Cuba. The US courts rubber-stamped their convictions. On September 12, 2010, they will complete 12 years in US jails. The "dissidents" were championed by the Miami-based, Cuban-Americans, who have long sought the overthrow of Cuban socialism.
It is no secret “the Cuban Five” were up to. Gerardo Hernández, Ramón Labañino, Antonio Guerrero, Fernando González and René González were informing Cuba about armed, Miami-based operations.
But guess what?
In 1997 the Cuban government passed on this information to the US Government through the FBI, hoping that US President Bill Clinton might do something to stop these terrorist operations. Instead of arresting the terrorists, the FBI tracked the source of the information, detected the Cuban Five and handed them over to the Miami courts. This was, of course, the one judicial space in the world where they could not possobly a fair trial. Huge sentences were imposed for "conspiracy to commit espionage".
And here’s the really big one:
December, 2008, Cuban President Raul Castro offered a prisoner exchange. He would exchange the remaining 50-odd ``dissidents'' for the Cuban Five. Raul Castro: "We’ll send them over there with families and all. Let them return our five heroes.".
THE US STATE DEPATMENT REJETED THE OFFER.
What is your reaction to the release of these prisoners?
In comparison, Cuba is no worse (perhaps less worse) than the United States of America.
Is the question:
Is Cuba's prisoner release a step towards democracy or
Is America's political prisoner program a step away from democracy?

While it's a nice first step I don't see the Castro brothers willing to give up the shop that easily. Let's see fair and open elections, transparent government, free press along with an independent judiciary.

This is indeed a significant step for Cuba. I am in the US, but do not agree with the hard line from the Cuban
exile community in Florida. I think it is long past time the US drops its trade embargo. The embargo doesn't
really punish the regime anymore. Instead, the regime wears it like a badge of honor and uses it for its own
political purposes, stirring up xenophobia and anti-US sentiment. Post number 11 is quite right to point out
that the US enjoys lucrative trade with regimes which have far worse records in human rights. Fully integrating
Cuba into the global economy is the best course of action, not only for the welfare Cuban people, but also in the interest of more peaceful international relations.

@ 15. AuntieLeft,

If you were to read Marx and Engels then you'd know that the USSR was never socialist. The fundamental tenet of socialism is the collective ownership of the means of production and exchange. Following the Bolshovik counterrevolution of 1918, Russia's brief experiment with socialism was ended and a new system put in its place under which the means of production and exchange were put into the hands of the state. That was the USSR and that system is more properly called state capitalism.

It is true that it suited the purposes of both successive Soviet and US leaderships to *call* the Soviet system socialist but that doesn't mean that it was.

It can be a game to gain a favour or the beginning of the end of Castro’s Cuba. Time will tell.

Is Cuba's prisoner release a step to democracy? No.

I totally agree with Yorkshire News! All the EU states go against Cuba mainly because of US pressure. Cubans enjoy more freedom than any communist regime or most Middle Eastern states. All Cubans are entitled for free health care compared to 50m or so poor Americans who don’t. EU should abandon its double standard policies and help the Cubans to enjoy better standard of living

For decades the pressure on the Cuban Government is released by allowing dissidents ( Citizens not in agreement with communism ) leave the country- This has been done legally as well ass illegally; such as smuggled into other countries- This time... again the Cuban Government is releasing the external pressures by allowing the internal opposition to emigrate- thus eliminating the internal political pressure. It is a Win Win move by the Cubans- Now after they and families leave the country the government is free of those "distractions".. such as ladies in white demonstrating and foreign governments asking questions et.
I feel the Catholic Hierarchy as well as the spanish government have fallen victims of the Cuban Government goals, which is to released internal pressure by sending the opposition into exile-
Please note that the prisoners families are allowed to return- The Political Prisoners will need a "special permit" to enter the imprisoned Island-
I see it very clear... don't you ?

Seems to me it wasn't that long ago that we had "political prisoners" on hunger strike in this country demanding better treatment and we still have people in this country who could be classed as "political prisoners" so not sure their release is a sign of democracy nor their imprisonment a symptom of purely Communist states.

I do applaud both the Spanish government and the Catholic church for using that seemingly forgotten art of diplomacy in order to secure their release and as other commentators have alluded to it puts into perspective what talking can achieve when compared to threats, dirty wars and blockade.

"2. At 11:09am on 08 Jul 2010, yorkshire News wrote:
As we are living in a country where several people have spent years in jail without charge or trial on "terror reasons" then I don't think we have any right to comment on Cuba until we sort our own house out."

Is that what you think? How fascinating!

I thought it was illegal to hold someone in detention without charge "for years" in the UK, for any reason. Perhaps you can write to the press- I'm sure they would be interested in your story, as it shows that the UK courts and police are breaking the law regarding time spent detained without charge. It will be an absolutely massive story. And it will all be thanks to you!

In answer to the main question, possibly. It seems that Cuba is changing. Let's hope that this is the frst step to a more grown-up dialogue and relationship between Cuba and the USA.

"Cuba is the U.S.A. whipping boy for (40 years} since they got rid of the mafia and All the American coruption, that was in Cuba before Castro, This letting some prisoners' go could be his parting gift to the U.S. letting out they spys? American Democracy did not work in Cuba, because the few who had control of the island {the Army }were power crazy at that time. How many innocent people did they murder?

Cuba is nothing but a fiefdom of the Castro brothers and their cadre of old "comandantes" that have ruled the island with an iron fist for the last 52 years. Releasing the political prisoners means nothing in terms of change or easing of the tyrannical rule of the regime. The same "laws" that put the prisoners behind bars are still in effect. The Castro brothers will apply those "laws" arbitrarily whenever it suits their game.

This move is all about money, the country is bankrupt due to the total inefficiency of the economy and the endemic corruption of the regime. They need the EU to open up their finances so that they can borrow money that they then will not repay. How many other political prisoner releases has the Castro regime orchestrated before? Quite a few if you care to count. Yet the world treats this event as a brand new event and a sign of change for the better. Come on, these crooks have been hoodwinking the world for 52 years. It is unfortunate but history repeats itself and we do not seem to learn.

This first big leap is a great beginning for Cuba. The world should applaud Cuba for releasing 52 political detainees at one go. Appreciation even in minute doses will prod Cuba into something bigger and better the next time. Such gesture is an inkling that Cuba is on the right track discarding the communism card and inching towards democracy.

I think this article evades one key question: Who are these prisoners and why were they detained?

I would like to point out the reasons why the West and particularly the US have no right whatsoever to be judge and jury when it comes to deciding whether or not Cuba is moving quickly enough towards becoming "more democratic". To start, US credibility is immediatley shot on this issue and any criticism of Cuba by the US is blatantly hypocrytical when you consider the fact that the US have a huge prison in Cuba with one of the most deplorable records of human rights abuses and mistreatment of prisoners anywhere on earth.

Remember the bay of pigs invasion? Well the US is still doing this type of thing today, they arm and train government dissedents, get them to spy and carry out all sorts of other covert activities aimed at destabalising the Cuban leadership and causing chaos, and that's what these prisoners are, US puppets who have been engaged in treason against the government. Now, if you consider Guantamo Bay just down the road, there are hundreds upon hundreds of men being held there, many of whom have committed no crime, who are tortured and treated like animals by the US and may never leave, so who really has the moral highground here? Certainley not the United States. Imagine if the US detained US citizens who were being funded by Cuba to cause havoc with the US government.....How would they be dealt with? That's right, they would be sent to Guantanamo and tortured, denied any basic human rights and would eventually disappear, but we're all pre-programmed to believe that the United States is a champion of democracy, so anything deplorable they do is simply in self defence so it's essentially ok, however, if Cuba does it then it's different, they're portrayed as uncivilised freedom hating communists, so when they do it then it must be bad.

The hypocrosy from the US is unbelievable almost, these prisoners are actually treated in a far more moderate way than they would be by the US for the same crimes, yet somehow here we are questioning whether or not Cuba uphold human rights or are sufficientley democratic. The US obviously fears Cuba, because Cuba is a model upon which other countries can base a plan to resist US dominance and the kind of bullying and political interferance that goes on, the economic sanctions etc. Cubas resistance and self determination could become infectious, and the US know it. Democratic and Non-Democratic in Washingtons vocabulary actually mean Submissive and Non-Submissive, for example, Saudi Arabia can hardly be deemed "democratic", but in Washingtons eyes they are, why, because they do what they're told, they're a client state who takes orders from Washington. Or take Israel, they are a democratic country because they conform to Washingtons interests, despite the fact that they are guilty of some of the most deplorable acts of state terrorism ever seen, can you imagine a non submissive country throwing their weight around in the same way that Israel does? Like Iran for example, no, it simply would'nt happen because the US would'nt support or allow it.

So, the question posed by the article; "Is Cubas prisoner release a step to democracy?" could have many answers, all depend on this question "By what standards is democracy measured?" Well, the US frequently tells us that they set the bar in terms of what democracy is and how it should be measured, therefore, the answer to the question must be: Not only have Cuba taken steps towards democracy, they have already exceeded the United States by far, if we judge Cuba by Washingtons standards.

15. AuntieLeft wrote:
This IS a socialist democracy (also North Korea). One party state run by the people for the people. Just because it NEVER works (and never will) does not stop naive persons thinking it can. Lets not let the truth get in the way of day dreams and wasting their lives on the lie of socialism.
__________________________________________________________________

What a load of Tosh!

I visited Cuba last year, toured the island and spent a night in Havana.

What I found was an country empoverished where everybody worked, why was this? Because of the petty sulk of the US 50 years ago when their gangsters were thrown out.

Cuba has one of the highest literacy levels in the 3rd world (much higher than the UK). A medical service second to none (each of the 14 states has a university hospital).

I asked many cubans what they thought about the posibility of re-opening the country to the USA? Did I hear any talk about imperialism? about how the tradition of Castro's glorious revolution would be kept going? Did I hear any moaning of the deprivation the country has suffered because it's not allowed to import anything because the US says so?

No. Not once.

The Cubans do not care what the US says or does. They are not worried by the prospect of openess with the US. What is certain is that if all the drug lords and petty gangsters in Florida think that it will be business as usual they will be dissapointed.

Cuba has 11 million people and has (alledgedly) 110 'political' prisoners. Is that it?

Surely if it was the rampant totalitarian state as AuntieLeft claims they would have many more?

Cuba is populated by some of the most pleasant, polite and carefree people I have ever met, and it does work. If the US opens up to Cuba I predict that it's population will become one of the most dynamic in the region.

The UN puts Cuba as the country with the most prisoners per capita in the world. And considering this is a country which hasn't been corrupted by capitalism it's quite impressive.

>>15. At 12:27pm on 08 Jul 2010, AuntieLeft wrote:


>>Robert, have you ever read Marx and Engels? Have you ever studied the history of >>the Soviet Socialist Republics, etc? This IS a socialist democracy (also North >>Korea). One party state run by the people for the people. Just because it NEVER >>works (and never will) does not stop naive persons thinking it can. Lets not let >>the truth get in the way of day dreams and wasting their lives on the lie of >>socialism. What do they teach you at school? Oh, forgot there are many Guardian >>reading types in the teaching 'profession' so its just complain from armchair >>pretending to be good people as long as I don’t have to get my hands dirty.

Have you read it? Karl Marx actually said "Democracy is the road to socialism" and also didn't allow nation states. Whilst I think we can both agree that the idea could never work for long you have to remember when he was writing working men and women didn't have the vote and were working incredible hours. Since then (and possibly as a result of the threat of Marxism) we have seen Universal Suffrage and the introduction of welfare benefits (that incidentally Marx was against as he saw them as bribes to let the ruling classes stay in power and not change the underlying unfair system). In all the "communist" revolutions a poor country saw a wealthy elite who didn't do much for their people replaced with another set of people who would become wealthy elites and do a little for their people.

Lastly I for one take no pleasure in the fact that humankind are so selfish that the greed we seem to have genetically inside us and in our society means socialism cannot work. I don't think that is something any of us should be proud of.

>> 15. At 12:27pm on 08 Jul 2010, AuntieLeft

Have your opinion by all means and feel free to express it but don't try to pretend that you're the well informed and researched alternative to what was a fairly benign comment.

If you had studied the areas that you quoted you wouldn't display such a woeful misunderstanding of Socialism, Communism and Democracy.

Whatever you want to say about Cuba they have a higher life expectancy and literacy rate than citizens in the US and while it's hardly a "free" society it's only a relatively recent feature of human history to demand to be "free" to be uninformed and die young.

Sachidananda Narayanan wrote:
Media Mugals are highlighting a few hundred prisoners in "Communist" Cuba but keep their mouth shut to the thousands illegally kept behind bars in "democratic" Israeli prisons guarded by British soldiers in Jenin and Jericho without any trial or sentence.

Dare speak for them?

-----------------------------------

Give it a rest already, this topic has nothing to do with the Jews, I'm sure your NWO paymasters don't need you to troll every single forum in existences spreading there antisemitic propaganda.

this is more like a baby step,

What's shocking about united states hates Cuba? Didn't Cuba nearly cause ww3,and until recently was run by a mad man,who was the longest running dictator in Latin America?


surely,if capitalism was so bad people would never want to do business in America,and lately china.

"14. At 12:17pm on 08 Jul 2010, AuntieLeft wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Phillip thats because the Roman Church are used to talking and making deals with gangsters and thugs! Read your history. I was not indoctrinated from birth so I DO want the TRUTH out in the open, not like some.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Far be it from me to rain on your overt bigotry toward the Catholic Church, but perhaps you could enlighten us all with that you mean.

"so I DO want the TRUTH out in the open, not like some."

I was under the impression (do forgive me if I am out of step here) that, that is what the Catholic Church was fighting a case for in assisting in gaining the release of these people.

So what exactly do you mean? Your line above doesn't really make sense...

I think this article evades one key question: Who are these prisoners and why were they detained?

I would like to point out the reasons why the West and particularly the US have no right whatsoever to be judge and jury when it comes to deciding whether or not Cuba is moving quickly enough towards becoming "more democratic". To start, US credibility is immediatley shot on this issue and any criticism of Cuba by the US is blatantly hypocrytical when you consider the fact that the US have a huge prison in Cuba with one of the most deplorable records of human rights abuses and mistreatment of prisoners anywhere on earth.

Remember the bay of pigs invasion? Well the US is still doing this type of thing today, they arm and train government dissedents, get them to spy and carry out all sorts of other covert activities aimed at destabalising the Cuban leadership and causing chaos, and that's what these prisoners are, US puppets who have been engaged in treason against the government. Now, if you consider Guantamo Bay just down the road, there are hundreds upon hundreds of men being held there, many of whom have committed no crime, who are tortured and treated like animals by the US and may never leave, so who really has the moral highground here? Certainley not the United States. Imagine if the US detained US citizens who were being funded by Cuba to cause havoc with the US government.....How would they be dealt with? That's right, they would be sent to Guantanamo and tortured, denied any basic human rights and would eventually disappear, but we're all pre-programmed to believe that the United States is a champion of democracy, so anything deplorable they do is simply in self defence so it's essentially ok, however, if Cuba does it then it's different, they're portrayed as uncivilised freedom hating communists, so when they do it then it must be bad.

The hypocrosy from the US is unbelievable almost, these prisoners are actually treated in a far more moderate way than they would be by the US for the same crimes, yet somehow here we are questioning whether or not Cuba uphold human rights or are sufficientley democratic. The US obviously fears Cuba, because Cuba is a model upon which other countries can base a plan to resist US dominance and the kind of bullying and political interferance that goes on, the economic sanctions etc. Cubas resistance and self determination could become infectious, and the US know it. Democratic and Non-Democratic in Washingtons vocabulary actually mean Submissive and Non-Submissive, for example, Saudi Arabia can hardly be deemed "democratic", but in Washingtons eyes they are, why, because they do what they're told, they're a client state who takes orders from Washington. Or take Israel, they are a democratic country because they conform to Washingtons interests, despite the fact that they are guilty of some of the most deplorable acts of state terrorism ever seen, can you imagine a non submissive country throwing their weight around in the same way that Israel does? Like Iran for example, no, it simply would'nt happen because the US would'nt support or allow it.

So, the question posed by the article; "Is Cubas prisoner release a step to democracy?" could have many answers, all depend on this question "By what standards is democracy measured?" Well, the US frequently tells us that they set the bar in terms of what democracy is and how it should be measured, therefore, the answer to the question must be: Not only have Cuba taken steps towards democracy, they have already exceeded the United States by far, if we judge Cuba by Washingtons standards.

15. At 12:27pm on 08 Jul 2010, AuntieLeft wrote:
..have you ever read Marx and Engels? Have you ever studied the history of the Soviet Socialist Republics, etc? This IS a socialist democracy (also North Korea). One party state run by the people for the people.
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Cuba and North Korea are not socialist democracies. They are dictatorships established under the guise of socialism. The ruling elite live like kings whilst the populace lives in poverty. They are indeed one party states, however they are run by the elite for the elite.

37. At 1:35pm on 08 Jul 2010, JohnH wrote:

What a load of Tosh!

I visited Cuba last year, toured the island and spent a night in Havana.
__________________________________________________________________

Wow, you spent a night in Havana and toured Cuba! That makes you an expert in democracy and comparative economic systems! Congratulations, I am impressed!

I don't know where you reside, but I bet you that your country's leadership has not been THE SAME for the last 52 years. I bet you that if you live in a democracy you can stand in a street corner and shout out that your country's leadership is corrupt, incompetent and needs to be changed without the fear of ending up in jail. Try that on your next visit to Havana, get on a corner and start shouting and lets see how long you last before getting hauled to jail!

Yes, Cuba is great if you visit as a tourist and carry convertible money. Try living as a Cuban for at least a year and lets see how you like it then.

The hypocrisy of the West on this issue is astonishing! Only today the national-press reported on a Mr Babar Ahmed, who is imprisoned in Long Larton prison, and is the longest-serving prisoner held without charge or trial in the UK.

At the very least, these so-called dissidents, who are in fact agents of a hostile US government (IE they take funding and direction from US agencies), have had a trial and an opportunity to put their case.

Imagine a scenario, prior to the attack on Iraq, whereby the Saddam government paid and directed British people to operate against the British state – do we imagine this would be acceptable by to the UK government?

41. At 1:49pm on 08 Jul 2010, Andy wrote:
Sachidananda Narayanan wrote:
Media Mugals are highlighting a few hundred prisoners in "Communist" Cuba but keep their mouth shut to the thousands illegally kept behind bars in "democratic" Israeli prisons guarded by British soldiers in Jenin and Jericho without any trial or sentence.

Dare speak for them?

-----------------------------------

Give it a rest already, this topic has nothing to do with the Jews, I'm sure your NWO paymasters don't need you to troll every single forum in existences spreading there antisemitic propaganda.

&&&&&&

Off Topic I know, but a decade ago the US survivalist movement had the Jewish people as one of the shadowy powers behind the New World Order.

Are they now its victims?

Sorry to perpetuate the digression, but i do like to keep my bonkers conspiracy theories up to date.

44. At 1:54pm on 08 Jul 2010, Snoop Frog wrote:

"By what standards is democracy measured?"
________________________________________________________

Snoop Frog, that is a very good question. What is your answer? I assume that since you are expressing your opinion freely on this forum, that you are a believer that one of the link pin components of democracy is the FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION! Also, since you are posting your opinions via the internet, that you also enjoy free access to this medium. Therefore, how do you see Cuba as even showing the minimal semblance of democracy, when doing what you are doing here would put you in jail if you posted anything that disagreed with the government line. There is no FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION IN CUBA, the most basic right under any definition of democracy. How do you justify that in support of your argument?

Cuba released the prisoners due to international pressure over the death of Orlando Zapata Tamayo. It looks far better to release the prisoners rather then letting them starve to death in prison for their beliefs. Orlando Zapata Tamayo dying for his cuase has done more for Cuba than the Castro brothers have done in the last 52 years. He has exposed the true colors of this regime for what it is. God forbid that they actually let people vote, or even permit freedom of speech. Castro was listed in the top 100 list for most wealthest people in the world while the remaining cuban population live in poverty. This sham has gone on long enough, LET THE PEOPLE VOTE!!!

8. At 12:05pm on 08 Jul 2010, Lucy Clake wrote:

despite all the rhetoric in the west the Cubans must be quite content.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Do you think so Lucy? I suggest you pay a visit to Amnesty Internationals website and ascertain some facts.

Cuba "represses nearly all forms of political dissent" and "Cubans are systematically denied basic rights to free expression, association, assembly, privacy, movement, and due process of law". Source The Human Rights Watch.

Proof that they have a lot to hide is perhaps best provided by the fact that they have imprisoned more journalists than any other country in the world except China.
Source Committee to Protect Journalists an international body.

Doubt you would be able to type anti government rhetoric there as right to internet use is only granted to approved individuals. Connecting to the Internet illegally can lead to a five-year prison sentence.

Then there is the torture and murder of many voices of disent......

Yep I bet the Cubans are very content as evidenced by the huge numbers that have risked their lives escaping Cuba. Bit like used to happen in another socialist paradise East Germany.

>> 46. At 2:16pm on 08 Jul 2010, MB wrote:

>>I don't know where you reside, but I bet you that your country's leadership has >>not been THE SAME for the last 52 years.

Whilst I fully accept your point about the difference between a tourist to Cuba and a resident and the freedom of speech argument (though it's worth noting you could be arrested in the UK and held for 30days without trial if they felt you were asking for violence) I found the above comment the most eye opening. We've had many leaders in the UK true but my local consituency has been a one-party "state" for over 60years even though the party that wins it has never had over 50% of the people voting for him (it's more like 30%). I accept our democracy is more advanced than Cuba but it certainly isn't perfect.

@ 38. At 1:42pm on 08 Jul 2010, Andy wrote:

The UN puts Cuba as the country with the most prisoners per capita in the world. And considering this is a country which hasn't been corrupted by capitalism it's quite impressive.
________________

This statement is incorrect. Firstly, in terms of normal prisoners, the US is top, incarcerating about 1 in 100 of the adult population. The US, representing 4% of the world's population, holds 25% of the world's prison population. Cuba's nothing compared with that.

In terms of political prisoners, which you may have been referring to, the figures are more grey. The US has certainly made statements to the UNHCR alleging that Cuba has the most but I've not seen reliable figures to confirm that.

33. At 1:25pm on 08 Jul 2010, Lewis Fitzroy wrote:
"Cuba is the U.S.A. whipping boy for (40 years} since they got rid of the mafia and All the American coruption, that was in Cuba before Castro, This letting some prisoners' go could be his parting gift to the U.S. letting out they spys? American Democracy did not work in Cuba, because the few who had control of the island {the Army }were power crazy at that time. How many innocent people did they murder?

===================================

So, you really believe that there is NO organised crime in Cuba. Where are you from, planet ZOGG???

13. At 12:13pm on 08 Jul 2010, AuntieLeft wrote:

Seriously though, only when Cuba is freed from the socialist regime will democracy as we know it, be allowed. Until then they will be kept in their socialist, third world paradise. Give the people the vote and see which system THEY choose.

You mean like in Vietnam where when asked to choose 80% were going to vote for Ho Chi Minh and so the US went in and supported a dictator who cancelled elections and then they bombed and killed 2-4 million people ? "saving" them from the communists that they were going to vote for.

Or in Iran where they chose a government who didn't tolerate the rape of their national oil wealth by the UK and so we installed a dictator.

Or in Chile ... or ...

The point is more .. "give the people the vote and see what we do when they choose a system we don't like."

And you would no doubt agree with our actions as its quite clear from you comment that you don't include the population voting for a socialist government as democracy.

52. At 3:08pm on 08 Jul 2010, RoyaltyinTheChampionship wrote:

We've had many leaders in the UK true but my local consituency has been a one-party "state" for over 60years even though the party that wins it has never had over 50% of the people voting for him (it's more like 30%).
_________________________________________________________

Well, based on what I read (correct me if I am wrong), you will be able to vote in an upcoming referendum that will change that situation if the majority of voters wish it. In Cuba, for 52 years, the population has not had the freedom to choose and change their leadership in a free and open election.

rahul Castro is a breath of fresh air. aA sea-change is taking place in Cuba. Rahul Castro is moving with the times out of political necessity. The Cubans are craving for Western freedoms. Prisoner release is the first stage: political prisoners should not be locked up. Of course those in prison for rape and murder should be given prison sentences according to the nature of their crime: there should be fairness in the system. As long as matters evolve with fairness and justice one should not expect too much to happen in one go.

55. At 3:20pm on 08 Jul 2010, Russ wrote:
And you would no doubt agree with our actions as its quite clear from you comment that you don't include the population voting for a socialist government as democracy.
____________________________________________________

Russ, based on your comment I must deduce that in your case you prefer that the population NOT be allowed to vote and that a dictatorial regime, a la North Korea or Cuba be established to tell them what is best for them. I also must assume that you do not vote in your country's elections given the possibility of invasion by the US in the event that a socialist democracy is elected. I hope that in Spain the army is manning the beaches, given that they have a socialist party running the country the Marines should be landing any minute now......

47. At 2:19pm on 08 Jul 2010, denisl wrote:

At the very least, these so-called dissidents, who are in fact agents of a hostile US government (IE they take funding and direction from US agencies), have had a trial and an opportunity to put their case.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah right 'agents of a hostile US government' like Manuel Antonio González Castellanos who was found guilty of "contempt for authority".Castellanos a member of the Cuba Press agency was tried because he had criticized Fidel Castro and the local authorities in the course of a difficult conversation with local police. The police apparently had verbally harassed González Castellanos earlier in the day. The court sentenced him to two years and seven months.

Other 'agents of a hostile US government' include people like Adolfo Fernandez Sainz, Cuba Journalist for the Moscow-based news agency PRIMA. He was arrested as a result of the government’s crackdown on independent journalists. He was accused of giving interviews to foreign radio stations and posting “subversive” articles on the Internet, and sentenced to 15 years in prison under Law 88 better known as the “gag law”.

This is relatively insignificant, in the scheme of things. It gets press, it looks good on paper, and that's about it.

WELL I DON'T SEE WHY ARE WE CREATING A BIG DEAL ABOUT CUBA AND DEMOCRACY, I AM HAPPY THAT THEY RELEASED THOSE PRISONERS. BUT WHAT ABOUT THE US AND GUANTANAMO BAY , THE IRAQI INVASION THE ABUSE OF HUMAN RIGHTS AMONG MANY OTHER THINGS CANNOT BE COMPARED TO THOSE PRISONERS. AT LEAST THEY WENT ON HUNGER STRIKE AND IS NOT A SITUATION WHERE THEY WERE ILL TREATED AND THEIR BASIC RIGHTS ABUSED.

Too bad Cubans can't access this BBC website or have computers in general. As someone who was born in Eastern Europe and understands the idiocy of the current Cuban regime a bit better then the rest on this forum - all I can say is that nothing is going to change in Cuba until the totalitarian regime disappears. And they are releasing 56 prisoners? How many other prisoners are there of which we don't even know about?

Politics aside, I'd like to see the US significantly ease or eliminate its trade restrictions on Cuba.

I think that would do more for the cause of human rights and Western-style democracy than a hugely unpopular and ineffective policy dating back to the Cold War.

Immigrant communities in the US wield tremendous power and the Cuban community is a perfect example. They have used their voting power to keep the US embargo in place for decades. American tourists, businesses, and universities suffer, but still the embargo remains.

It's a myth that most of the Cubans in Miami have mafia ties or are wealthy. Many of them are quite poor and have arrived in the US through the most desparate of measures. They are motivated by ideology and a desire for freedom.

I'm convinced that the embargo is responsible for the power of the Castro brothers. The embargo is a perfect scapegoat for economic stagnation caused by corruption and the inherent weaknesses of communism. Without the embargo, Cuban communism would have dissolved with the USSR in the 1990s.

A few points of note?
Nobody paddles through 50 miles of shark infested water to escape free health care.
No Cubans contributing to have your say? Probably because if they attempt to use the internet they will be branded 'American spies' and end up in prison. Information can be as valuable as steel and all totalitarian regimes know this.
No racism in Cuba? I wouldn't fancy being an afro-carribean in a spanish-american dominated island thank you very much.
And how about trying to access the best beaches in the Carribean only to find them reserved for european sex tourists.
Sadly Cuba still has some way to go.

I just want to be able to buy those Cuban cigars. I wish the US and Cuba would work that problem out.

In today’s headlines, Spain called upon the EU to end the common policy against Cuba, because of its decision to release political prisoners, a few soon, others ‘months later’. This was not a change in Cuba, it was a strategy, implemented by its poodle, Spain, to gain a better status. Most interesting, Spain calls for the immediate change in policy, as Cuba promises only to release the prisoners, months later.

This is nothing new. When the world was aghast at the imprisonment of these champions of freedom and imposed sanctions, it was Spain, with Cuba doing nothing, who insisted successfully that Europe lift the sanctions not long thereafter.

Here is what Human Rights Watch said of Castro’s imprisonment of these dissidents.


“Human Rights Watch has been monitoring human rights conditions in Cuba for more than 15 years. Severe political repression has been constant throughout thistime. Cuba has long been a one-party state. It haslong restricted nearly all avenues of political dissent. It has long denied its people basic rights to fair trial, free expression, association, assembly, movement and the press. It has frequently sought to silence its critics by using short term detentions, house arrests, travel restrictions, threats, surveillance, politically motivated dismissals from employment, and other harassment.

But this year's crackdown on political dissent in Cuba, in its scale and intensity, is the worst we've seen in a decade or more.

The crackdown was a reaction to the flowering of civil society in Cuba over the last several years, and to the growing activism and ambitions of its dissident community. It followed the success of the Varela Project, led by dissident Oswaldo Paya, in gathering
signatures from Cuban citizens on a petition calling for political reform.

The crackdown began on March 18. In just a few days, state security agents arrested dozens of people, launching an all-out offensive against nonviolent dissidents, independent journalists, human rights defenders, independent librarians, and others brave
enough to challenge the government's monopoly on truth. In due process terms, their trials were a sham.

And in the end, 75 defendants received sentences ranging from 6 to 28 years, with an average sentence of 19 years. Cuban courts have not imposed such draconian sentences on such large numbers of people in more than two decades.

The first thing I hope we can all agree on is that no one should have any illusions about the character of the Cuban government. No one should romanticize any aspect of this cruel system, or make any excuses for Fidel Castro's abuses. The crackdown on dissent in
Cuba is not the fault of the United States, or the fault of the U.S. embargo, or the fault of the Cuban-American community.

The responsibility lies with Fidel Castro, period.”

End of HRW analysis of Cuba’s actions then, the worst ever, and the responsbility for it.
Less than two years later, here is the report of the lifting of the sanctions that the EU imposed in response to this.

Frankly, it reads like a pre-run of exactly what is going on here. Cuba makes some minor gesture to curry favor with the EU, Spain is Castro’s Fifth Column in Europe and makes the demand for reversing the sanctions then, the common policy today. In between then and now, the Castro’s did nothing to improve human rights.

“Europe | 31.01.2005
EU Suspends Sanctions Against Cuba Großansicht des Bildes mit der Bildunterschrift: The EU has given Cuban leader Castro a break from sanctions. The European Union agreed Monday to suspend diplomatic sanctions against Cuba for at least six months, easing a standoff triggered by the jailing of dissidents in 2003.

The suspension, to be reviewed before July, was decided after Fidel Castro's regime released a number of dissidents and signaled a re-opening of diplomatic contacts with EU embassies in Havana.

The decision will allow the resumption of high-level visits, although such trips must be used to push for improvements in human rights and the rights of dissidents in Cuba.
(Until now, again in exchange for a promise to release prisoners, Cuba, through Spain, demands a change in the common policy. Other than that, five years after the lifting of sanctions, Cuba did nothing, Europe accepted that.)

The EU froze relations with Cuba following a crackdown that saw 75 dissidents jailed for terms of between six and 28 years. Three Cubans found guilty of hijacking a ferry were executed. But the standoff eased noticeably after the release of a number of the dissidents, in a move seen partly as a gesture to win over EU nations most opposed to lifting the sanctions.”

The exact same story, a small gesture designed not to change its policies of repression, but rather to extract a concession from Europe.

Here is what Europe should be doing, most of all Spain which has been admirably tough on bringing brutal dictators to justice – but only if the dictator is not a friend of Spain.

By any objective measure, number of people executed, ‘disappeared’, imprisoned and in denial of free speech, free elections, refusal to restore democracy, etc, Castro’s record is far worse than was Chile’s Pinochet. I make no brief for Pinochet, but one has to ask the obvious question, why is Spain championing, over and over again, Castro’s brutality not indicting him for it.

As Human Rights Watch and Jimmy Carter, speaking in Cuba, said, Cuba’s problems in economic and political terms are not a consequence of the US. Embargo, but simply the product of Fidel Castro’s stupid policies and brutual practices to impose them.

The Cubans themselves measure the ‘harm’ done by the embargo as nothing more than imposing higher shipping costs, the extra costs of shipping goods from Canada, Europe, Mexico or all the others who do business with them. Thee is nothing that Cuba couldn’t buy or sell on the world market, if they had anything to sell (other than cigars) or, from such production, money to buy from the rest of the world willing to sell to them.

The idea that America’s embargo explains Cuba’s cruel, needless poverty is a rationale the apologists to which HRW makes reference hides behind to explain a truth they don’t want to confront.

Those who say the embargo has not worked and ought to be lifted, should also note the policy of engagement that Europe, Canada, et al follow, also has not worked. The fact simply is Castro’s Cuba, embargo or engagement, is impervious to outside forces and is based simply on Castro’s insistence his way and only his way, the people be damned.

The apologists claim that the embargo makes Castro more popular. If he is so popular, why would he not hold a free and fair election. Popular leaders win elections and if he conducted such an election, observed, fully free and fair and won it, that would really bolster his case against America.

But in 50 years, Castro never did. Maybe he is not quite so popular as the apologists would have us believe.

The real reason Castro holds on is because the world is divided in its approach to him.
Europe demands useless engagement and America, with only it maintiang the embargo cannot succeed. If Europe, Canada, Mexico and the others joined the embargo, Castro would collapse in short order.

Today, Europe sends tourists to stay in hotels, eat in restaurants that local Cubans are barred from entering, legally and economically. That revenue is 50% of the money that Castro has to prop up his regime.

It should be noted, a huge part of the tourism isn’t traditional holiday seekers, but rather sex tourists, Europeans, who come to Cuba to find children, boys and girls, with whom they can have sex.

Finally, Cuba’s much touted literacy. It shocked me to learn and may put what Castro has done in proper perspective to learn that the 98% (claimed, not proven) literacy today was simply a modest improvement on the literacy rate – 79% according to the UN figures for 1955 – that already existed, under the Batista regime Castro replaced.

Castro inherited an education system that was fully functioning and modestly expanded it to a few rural areas where it had not been – and now claims credit for the high rate as if it was a major, starting from scratch achievement.

But there is a far more devastating critique of the literacy rate.

Literacy is a means, not an end. Good societies want their citizens literate for reasons, so they can participate in the political governance of their own country, so they can provide for their families and build the wealth of the society and most of all, so they can have the intellectual capability to think for themselves, to express for themselves who they are and who they want to be.

Castro denies them all the fruit of their literacy. He turns what was one of his few modest successes, increasing literacy from 79%, into a sick, cruel trick, denying them what they need, freedom, to make literacy meaningful. And the apologists can’t stop congratulating him for doing it.

Europe denigrates capitalism and glorifies socialism, oblivious to the fact that the social welfare system that they so adore exists only because capitalism, not socialism, produces the wealth that must first be created if it is later to be re-distributed. Oblivious.

Socialism, command economies, as is the case in Cuba, North Korea and was the case in China, Eastern Europe, the Soviet Union, brought total, unrelenting poverty to the people everywhere, forced to live under it. While the Europeans, who reveled in the benefits that capitalism showers on them, routinely denounces the capitalism that feeds them.

Bottom line, the events in Cuba are a meaningless ploy to gain some minor advantate that won’t change the underlying problem – Castro, Fidel and Raul must go and the way to do that is for all the world to say, 50 years of failure, 50 years of blaming everybody else but yourselves, 50 years of executing people for wanting freedom, imprisoning them, saying no to free and fair elections, to a market economy so people can eat and enjoy the things they want is enough, more than enough, way, way more than enough.

Europe should not lift the common policy as it should not have lifted the sanctions five years ago. Europe should not denounce capitalism, but sing its praises as it keeps close watch on its problems as well, Europe should join with America, impose an embargo to say once and for all to the Castros, it is time to go – now, not next month. Now.

Cuban people is getting closer to democracy. In isolation, they have been living in a limited-resources sharing reality, and they are getting along with it. But they have shown the capacity to reach high goals with these limited resources, and they deserve better support from the international community. Cuban revolution has met its goals and Cubans are going to be wellcomed in the improvement of this world full of injustice and unfair contrasts. Lets build an even decent society.

Great! Now Michael Moore, Oliver Stone, Sean Penn and the rest of these Hollywood Leftist idiots can go over there for their GREAT FREE Health Care system we have heard so much about.

60. At 3:57pm on 08 Jul 2010, tsigili wrote:

This is relatively insignificant, in the scheme of things. It gets press, it looks good on paper, and that's about it.

61. At 4:03pm on 08 Jul 2010, KERON wrote:

WELL I DON'T SEE WHY ARE WE CREATING A BIG DEAL ABOUT CUBA .........

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Oh sorry guys I didn't understand. I naively thought that people were concerned about human rights abuses. What I didn't realise is that it is only something to beat the Western democracies over the head with and that when it happens in Communist or Socialist regimes then it is okay and we don't mention it.



63. At 4:26pm on 08 Jul 2010, 4FreeSpeech wrote:

Politics aside, I'd like to see the US significantly ease or eliminate its trade restrictions on Cuba.
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This has been happening. A law passed by congress in 2000 authorised purchases of U.S. food and agricultural products. Since 2003 the USA has been the main supplier of food to Cuba.

Its main exports to Cuba include chicken, wheat, corn, rice and soybeans - much of it doled out to Cubans on the government ration.

" I bet the Cubans are very content as evidenced by the huge numbers that have risked their lives escaping Cuba"

There are not huge numbers risking their lives escaping. Very few have left since the first big exodus. Quite a number of mafia members left early on as they knew their number was up. I bet most Cubans couldn't wait to see them go, Posters here bang on about democracy. We live in a so called democracy, millions don't even bother to turn out because they know that whoever gets in they'll just look after themselves and their donors. Did the Tories get a majority and how many voted for the Lib Dems? Politics in the US and to a lesser extent here is controlled by the wealthy for the wealthy and the campaigns are run by the media magnates. Given the choice of one of the best health services in the world open to all, the highest literacy rate and a first rate education system free to all {many from Spain go there for education} most people would swap that for a once every four years visit to the polling booth in the pretence of giving us a say

The paid disidents for the five cuban heroes railroaded by the USA sounds fair. An offer made a year ago by Raul. If you take money in Cuba from the USA to file false stories as they did, of course they go to jail. The length of the prison terms a bit long, however, but that is cuban law.

A small token proffered by Cuba should be reciprocated by a small token by Free States. Nothing more. If the Cuban dictators (Raul and Fidel) wish to join the fold of civilized nations they will need to do a lot more than release a few political prisoners. The question we must ask is 'why is Cuba doing this?', the answer is probably along the lines of, 'they must need something...'

Cuba is feeling the pinch and is falling far behind developed nations, they know this, and they also know that if they don't make gains the their grip on power will weaken further thus making way for the Cuban people to finally solve their own problem.

Before anyone comments on Cuba, I think you should go to Wiki and type in Cuba. Their history has always been conflict and still is. There has been more government overthrows in Cuba than bananas. The only reason this one has lasted as long as it has is because of it heavy hand against its people. If full democracy every returns it will only be a matter of time before the next one happens-I guess its in their blood.

As long as they don't come to the UK, let them release whoever they like.

I have lived in Cuba for 6 years. Their laws are tough. They went after me over 500 km to collect a one peso parking ticket(which I paid immediately). My cuban family is happy with the current system and they vote every 2 to 3 years for their municipal reps and every 5 years for the National reps(Assemblea Nacional=House of commons=Congress). The Party does not field candidates and about 30% of elected officials are member also of the PCC. They would appreciate higher wages without the american embargo and those cubans who emigrate do so for this reason.Note that most cuban food supplies are home grown while the USA supplies the major portion of the Food Imports.

Lucy Clarke wrote:
"The amusing thing is that when Castro came to power it was predicted that he would not be there long and yet he has seen many presidents come and go."


You are amused for the wrong reason. American presidents 'come and go' due to the wisdom of term limits. It has nothing to do with Castro outlasting them. History has shown that allowing one person indefinite and unfettered free rein to political power causes, shall we say, problems for the people.

Cuba is not quite the socialist paradise you are making it out to be. Please tell me you are not one of those naive European tourists who thinks they've seen the 'real' Cuba just because they've been to a resort. Should you have been forced (yes, forced is the right word - unless you wished to risk death trying to get to the US on a raft or overcrowded boat) to live under this socialist hero's policies for such a great length of time, I'm sure your 'amusement' would quickly turn to something else indeed. I've a few family members who would love to tell you about their level of contentment while living under such a regime.

I think they saw democracy in action in Guantanamo and fancied a piece of that.

Oh Spain..! Thank you so much for helping us Cubans! We Cubans fully understand how much you, Spain, care about us... after all you are a mayor investor in our wonderful island; and your investments help our wonderful leaders keep their bank accounts oh so high and stable that it enables them to stay in power and keep-up that wonderful "Old Russian" style oppressive machinery in place which puts the Chinese system to shame...! Of course, let us not forget our wonderful friends from Italy, Germany and Canada that also invest heavily here and contribute to our misery as well... and so the Castro dictators/oppressors have decided to free 50+ prisoners and let them go to Spain... what about the rest of the prisoners in the island... yes, the remaining 11+ million residents of the island...

58. At 3:41pm on 08 Jul 2010, MB wrote:

Russ, based on your comment I must deduce that in your case you prefer that the population NOT be allowed to vote and that a dictatorial regime, a la North Korea or Cuba be established to tell them what is best for them. I also must assume that you do not vote in your country's elections given the possibility of invasion by the US in the event that a socialist democracy is elected. I hope that in Spain the army is manning the beaches, given that they have a socialist party running the country the Marines should be landing any minute now......

Then your powers of deduction aren't too hot. Any population should be allowed a democratic vote and we should respect it whatever the result of their voting. We might not like it, but we should respect it.

Count up how many left wing democratic governments the US / UK have tried to topple or interfere with and count up the number of right wing democratic governments that they have tried it with. See a pattern ?

And if you don't think the same was tried in Europe, then look up Operation Gladio where the US left agents all across Europe to try to discredit any socialist parties by funding terrorism and disrupt the democratic process.

Oh, and no that's not a conspiracy theory. There are still ongoing parliamentary investigations in a number of European countries into the operation.

The last time Cuba opened its jails it emptied it of lunatics, killers and misfits, most of them landed in Florida and ended right into American jails for their dastardly deeds. I hope this time it is intellectuals and not street criminals being released as political prisoners for American tax payers to take care off. If Cuba wants better relationship with America then this is the right time under Obama, if they miss this opportunity then it will be harder when the Republicans come into the White house. More than releasing political prisioners it is important to give a voice to the opposition, slowly introduce multi party systems and improve on human rights.

There is no difference between Cuba and Nazi Germany. Totalitarianism is totalitarianism! The fact that some amoral people like to spend their vacation there being waited on hand and foot by slaves of the Communist Party does not change a thing. All they are doing is propping up a corrupt hateful vicious regime. Shame on you who support the subjugation of innocents while you sip pina coladas on the beach. Oh - and for a country which has a large black population how come not one black man or woman has ever been a member of the controlling political elite? Just don't be lying on the beach when the people of Cuba take their vengeance out on the elitist holidaymakers who keep them in their place. Cubans are not just your waiters and bus-boys - and one day you will find that out!

8. At 12:05pm on 08 Jul 2010, Lucy Clake wrote:


But the most amazing fact is that it was obvious that Castro was failing in health and yet they managed a peaceful transfer of power. This is almost unheard of in history, if a strong leader fails it is an opportunity for all the disgruntled elements to come to the fore and there is violence. The fact that this didn't happen can only indicate one thing, despite all the rhetoric in the west the Cubans must be quite content.


To his Brother? What transfer of power? That Cubans are quite content, do you even know any Cubans? I do. I know a lot of refugees. No they are not content. you must be smoking something other than Cubans Cigars.

That being said. I do hope, when they get their country back, it doesn't fall pray to all the gangsters and corrupt people who ran it before, or others like them. There is a n opportunity for the Cubans to make a strong place for themselves. If they go joining up with Chavez and try and create some kind of new communists bloc. Then they will have shot themselves in the foot. But that is what the Communists are anyway, just another power hungry bloc.

So, by freeing a few is a step towards democracy?
Is that better?
What about Guantamano Bay prisoners being held by the US?(and waterboarding) So much for the advantage of democracy IMO

16. At 12:31pm on 08 Jul 2010, SpiritOfTheAge wrote:blah blah

Why don't you go live there, you be prisoner #111 as soon as you start talking.


WITH ALL THIS TALK WHY ARE THERE NO CUBANS POSTING COMMENTS!!! Duh!

Cuba should take a step into the 21st century. Technology drives modern society. The old method of repression became a jaded notion after the First World War.

Cuba has less political prisoners than Guantanamo and they are treated more humanely. The US has been playing the game of Dictator to the Cuban people since the days of the Monroe Doctrine. The Cuban people will solve their own problems without the help of do-gooders who think they know what is best for the rest of the world. I spend most of each year in Cuba and not as a tourist and the ordinary Cubans I have lived and eaten with tell me they want to solve their problems by themselves. There is more racism and threats to human rights in the US than the whole of Cuba. Observe America and her so-called War on Terror - it is nothing less than a war on Muslims.

CUBA has been in a New Era for over TWENTY-FIVE Years exporting DOCTORS instead of Revolutionaries. A fact to which the Global community has been acutely aware with exception of US and sub-serviants.

Earthquake in Haiti? Cuba was first-in with Additional Four Hundred Doctors on top of Four Hundred left there after previous Hurricane(when everyone else had gone home) plus another Four Hundred Newly Graduated HAITIAN Doctors.

Cuba Trains Poor Nations Doctors for FREE. Whole Caribbean is saturated with Cuban Doctors who are becoming Legendary for HEALING without Expensive Pharmaceuticals. Cuba will also train Wealthy Nations Doctors for a FRACTION of what they normally pay for Med School.
My Scottish Doctor and some Progressive Colleagues took regular trips to Cuba to Observe and Learn about HEALING without $Billion budgets.

When Earthquake ravaged India and Pakistan, Cuba was first to offer Medical Help. India disdained to reply, but Pakistan did and received Fourteen-Hundred Doctors to help treat it's injured.

Now that Cuba is releasing "Dissidents", maybe we can Demonstrate our Democratic Superior System by making "Racially-Profiled Detentions" ILLEGAL.
Bleating about Benefits of Democracy while continuously LOOSING-Out to Alternate Systems of Governance really questions Logic. We need some CONSTRUCTIVE Changes FAST.

Hats Off to Cuba for enduring 50 years of US VINDICTIVENESS.

Cuban people want the things everyone else wants. Freedom to buy a nice new car. Freedom to travel. Freedom to buy a house. Freedom to set up in business. Believe it or not these fundamental freedoms are ILLEGAL in Cuba. It is the positive forces of the human spirit that will change Cuba for the better, not politics or dwelling on the past. Watch this space.

71. At 5:15pm on 08 Jul 2010, Lucy Clake wrote:

Posters here bang on about democracy. We live in a so called democracy, millions don't even bother to turn out because they know that whoever gets in they'll just look after themselves and their donors. Did the Tories get a majority and how many voted for the Lib Dems? Politics in the US and to a lesser extent here is controlled by the wealthy for the wealthy and the campaigns are run by the media magnates. Given the choice of one of the best health services in the world open to all, the highest literacy rate and a first rate education system free to all {many from Spain go there for education} most people would swap that for a once every four years visit to the polling booth in the pretence of giving us a say

--------------------------------------------------

After the 2010 general election the seats won were as follows Lucy:

Conservative 307
Labour 258
Liberal Democrat 57
Democratic Unionist Party 8
Scottish Nationalist Party 6
Others 14.

None of the parties achieved the 326 seats needed for an overall majority. The Conservative Party won the largest number of votes and seats. This entitles them to form a government. The Liberal Democrats Joining with them to form a Coalition gives the UK a much stronger government and one with a wider variety of different viewpoints.

Concerning your glowing comments about Cuba I have already directed you to Amnesty International's website, The Human Rights Watch website, The Committee to Protect Journalists etc. You are of course free to ignore everything they say and to continue believing that Cuba is a socialist paradise.

Strange thing is Lucy that for all the faults of the Western Democracies, which are many, they still provide the best quality of life and the best place to reside. This can be evidenced by the large numbers of persons from all over the world flocking to them and wishing to live in them together with the lack of people trying to escape them and head for the socialist paradise destinations. We have never had to build a wall to keep our people in.

Incidently Cuba doesn't have the highest literacy rate. According to the last published United Nations Development Programme Report Georgia holds that distinction. As regards the best education system in the world step forward Finland.

As regards Cuba having 'one of the best health services in the world' This is something that is difficult to judge. The World Health Organisation used to produce a ranking of the worlds health systems but had to give it up as the task proved too expensive and complex. However since they produced the last such report in the year 2000 France was judged to have the best health service in the world, the UK took 18th place and Cuba took 39th place.

It's funny that those countries with higher responsabilities for human rights violations during centuries and up to our days( U.K.,Spain, France, USA, Germany, Belgium and all the colonialist and imperialist) pretend to teach Cuba how to behave in this issues.

USA and their fellow gangsters all around the world are responsible for thousands of extra-judiciary executions, death squads, mass killings,etc

CUBA has to defend from all these dissidents-for-hire, payed by the US in its longtime effort for "regime change".

If you are trying to get information in the USA for another country, you are called a Spy, traitor, terrorist, etc. But if you are in CUBA, working for another country (USA) to promote turmoils, protest, gathering information for the enemy; then the western media calls you a "dissident", "freedom fighter".

I'm happy for the people thay will be released and hope they will not persist in their crimes against Cuba once abroad.

Everyone has the right to dissent, but working for a foreign (sworn enemy)country trying to turn yours into a colony can't be accepted.

sounds like another lot working up for a handout to ditch communism

" RE 90. At 7:57pm on 08 Jul 2010, rhinorevolt wrote"

I don't think Cuba is paradise I just am not willing to believe all this propaganda and brainwashing that we are subjected to by our right wing, foreign owned media. The information put out about Cuba is largely by the US or US based organisations. You only have to look at WHO figures for life expectancy. Cuba has risen from 60 years about the time of the revolution to 79 years now, a huge rise. They are now up with most major countries so they must be doing something right, by any one's reckoning. Incidently the USSR has suffered a massive drop since the fall of communism
I'm glad you are satisfied with our democracy. The LD's win a tenth of the seats and wield power because the Tories are terrified of another election. Our country is run by the wealthy as is the US. Here 90% of the wealth is held by 10% of the population and the best paid earn 81 times the average [not minimum] wage. This gap is getting ever wider. No one, however hard they work could possibly earn these massive salaries and bonuses. In the US the rich earn 350X- 400X the average wage. Only a quarter of our wealthy pay tax as the rest of us do, they dodge paying. Our politicians leave loopholes in the tax laws deliberately to help themselves and their pals. Because if an accountant can find a loophole the law makers can close it. I don't think Cuba is paradise, no where on earth is. You say why do people come here, many immigrants come to earn money which they send home because the money buys more in their home country but you ignored the fact that more people emigrate each year than come.
We are conned by the powerful rich into thinking we live in a fair country, they kid us and keep repeating it's democratic and the will of the people. They sucessfully play one group against another, the old ploy of divide and rule in order to maintain their very comfy lifestyle, and as long as we are not too badly off we fall for it. Just look at how many multi millionaires are on the front bench of the Tory party, they have no intention of giving that up and yet so many of these posts say "times are hard we must tighten our belts". You can put your money on the fact that the poorest will do more belt tightening than the rich. It's well named the Con party. I have no objection to there being some disparities in wealth but the gap is getting wider and we let it happen

Cuba is another failed socialist state because it didn't implement a workers democracy post-revolution, but instead installed an elite, unaccountable bureaucratic dictatorship just like the Russian and Eastern european states. Although the Cuban rulers were far less brutal in comparission. Socialsm can not function with out a working democracy, other wise it is just another form of economic exploitation and slavery (like capitalism). In Castro's words: 'I think exploitation of one human by another must disappear before you have real democracy.'

The problem Cuba faces, now F. Castro is gone, is the threat of U.S imperialism that would quickly send Cuba back into hands of gangster-capitalists, just like Russia and Eastern Europe after the forced re-introduction of capitalist policies. Wall Street will be queuing up with its cheque book to buy up Cuba's publicly owned industries, and all the socialist achievements of sixty years will be taken away. Health care and education will inevitably suffer, poverty will soar under the profit system, and the elite tyrannical bureaucrats will switch sides, and be first in line for a share of the economic pie. And will form the next ruling-class under capitalism.

You would think that a dissident on a hunger strike would be a self-solving problem for Cuba. I guess I'm just surprised they even bothered to give into demands.

1. No.
2. Cuba has been unable to build socialism let alone capitalist democracy.
3. If we are talking about the type of democracy introduced in Eastern Europe: I call that rape.
4. Democracy gives you some freedom to speak, organise, etc as long as you don't question (and apply democracy) at the work place and wealth, as long as the economy is out of the democratic debate.

I am a little dubious whenever the Communist rulers of Cuba periodically throw bait into the sea to catch world opinion unawares. I know a few Cuban ex-pats, who have been here in Canada for only a few years. They tell me not to be deceived. The oppression is still there, and the millions spent by Canadians at Varadero is not spent on the poverty stricken inhabitants. Communism is alive and well in Cuba. They just don't eat Russian sardines anymore.

The forthcoming Cuban release of at least some political prisoners may mean that the country which actually holds the largest number of political prisoners on Cuban soil is - - the U.S.!! The U.S. alleges that Cuba has violated its prisoners' human rights, but which country has held prisoners in inhumane circumstances without charge or trial for years, tortured most if not all, and subjected many to "rendition?"

93. At 8:52pm on 08 Jul 2010, Lucy Clake wrote:

"I don't think Cuba is paradise I just am not willing to believe all this propaganda and brainwashing that we are subjected to by our right wing, foreign owned media."

I would hardly call Amnesty International and The Human Rights Watch who I recommended you read with regards to Cuba as 'right wing foreign owned media' Lucy.

"I'm glad you are satisfied with our democracy.”

I am far from satisfied with it but as I stated in my previous post 'for all the faults of the Western Democracies, which are many, they still provide the best quality of life and the best places to reside.'

"How many multi millionaires are on the front bench of the Tory Party?"

I don't think you will find many poor politicians on the front benches of the Labour party either. If they are not rich when they arrive there they usually are by the time they leave. How much is Mr Blair worth these days?

Regardless of the political system in place those in power always lead a lifestyle far removed from that of the general population. When Russia sat behind the Iron curtain its leaders ran around in Limo's and enjoyed a life of privilege. North Korea's great leader leads a very different life to that of his subjects.

As regards the rich they will always be with us. If you gave three different people with nothing £100 in no time at all one of them would have £100 in a savings account, one would have turned it into £1000 and one would have spent the lot.

Concerning political parties I am an old cynic. I have voted for Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrat in my time. Over the years I have come to the conclusion that very few in government have our best interests at heart and most are there to line their own pockets.

To me these days it is a matter of voting for the lesser of evils. I have confidence the Coalition government will sort out the financial nightmare bequeathed by many years of Labours excessive borrowing and the cost of bailing out the banks. I also have confidence that one way or another they will take all of us for a ride.

I have confidence that if Labour is returned to power, which they very well might be at the next election, that they will start overspending and pretty soon present us with another financial mess that will have dreadful consequences for all of us. I also have confidence that one way or another they will also take all of us for a ride.

You could of course go for complete change and exterminate the rich and the ruling elite as Pol Pot did in Cambodia. He imposed a version of agrarian collectivization forcing city dwellers to relocate to the countryside to work in collective farms and forced labour projects, toward a goal of "restarting civilization" in a "Year Zero". The combined effects of slave labour, malnutrition, poor medical care, and executions resulted in the deaths of approximately 21% of the Cambodian population.

On balance I think I will stick with the UK system for all of it's flaws. ;-)

America will welcome the detainees, lauding them as heroes.
Fox will parade them as freedom fighters.

Once Cuba rejoins the US capitalist system most Cubans will end up living in tin shack shanty towns, just like most of the poor sods who live in 'freedom' and squalor throughout the various islands of the Caribbean.

Cubans are amongst the only people in the entire region with decent healthcare, affordable housing and three square meals a day.