Andrew Rawnsley on the character of Prime Ministers

On Sunday 28 February Andrew Marr interviewed political author Andrew Rawnsley.

Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

ANDREW MARR:

Well in Swansea yesterday, the Prime Minister was in bouncy mood with Labour activists. Maybe he'd heard about that poll. But what of unemployment, bankruptcies, huge debt levels, all of that? Well I'm going to be talking to the Welsh Secretary Peter Hain in a moment. But first to the row that's bubbled away at Westminster all week - Brown, the bully, as portrayed by the Observer journalist Andrew Rawnsley. Good morning to you, Andrew.

Andrew Rawnsley is Associate Editor of The Observer

ANDREW RAWNSLEY:

Good morning, Andrew.

ANDREW MARR:

In today's paper, the latest extract, you've moved on - and let's start with that - to Blair and Iraq. Now I suppose having watched Blair at the Chilcot Inquiry - absolutely self-confident, not a hesitation or a flicker of doubt - you portray a very different Tony Blair as the bad news started to come in.

ANDREW RAWNSLEY:

Yes, the whole point or one of the points of doing books like this, Andrew, is to explore what really went on behind the scenes, not just the public face of politicians. You rightly say at the recent Chilcot Inquiry when they interrogated Tony Blair, he was doing this very confidence performance - "I never regret a thing." Now going back to that period, one finds that as Iraq descends into bloody chaos after the conventional war, he is in fact more and more despairing - despairing that he can't get George Bush to get a grip on the situation, despairing about his own political situation, despairing even more when Sir Jeremy Greenstock, his own special envoy in Iraq, comes to brief him a final briefing after his time in Baghdad. And Sir Jeremy told me - this is all on the record - Sir Jeremy told me he was left with this image of Tony Blair tearing his hear out and saying, "What can we do? What can we do? We keep telling the Americans." And it gets to the point that his despair is so great, combined with the psychological pressure from the next door neighbour Gordon Brown to give him the job of Prime Minister, that Tony Blair comes this close to resigning.

ANDREW MARR:

Yeah, well I remember four cabinet ministers went in at the time. You remember? …

ANDREW RAWNSLEY:

Yes.

ANDREW MARR:

And they said you know …

ANDREW RAWNSLEY:

In fact it was more than four. I reveal in the book it was many more than four because his friends and allies get so worried about Tony Blair and how close he is to …

ANDREW MARR:

"Please don't go."

ANDREW RAWNSLEY:

… and they organise a campaign to make him feel loved.

ANDREW MARR:

That's right. Yeah, yeah. Returning to the bullying stories which have been so covered during the week, are you surprised that they haven't made much more of an impact on the polls? It's very odd that people say, "Hmn, Gordon Brown's a dreadful bully", but it doesn't then seem to affect the way they want to vote.

ANDREW RAWNSLEY:

I think most people think the character of those who lead us matters. I didn't write the book to influence anybody's vote particularly. I just think people have a right to know the full character for good and bad of the people who lead us. And people will have that in their judgement at their election, but also other things obviously - what they think of the economy, how they think public services have been run. All those things are in the book as well.

ANDREW MARR:

Mmn. Have you had a difficult week?

ANDREW RAWNSLEY:

Well people have said … It's been a very … In some ways, it's been a very amusing week because on the one hand I've been publicly denounced by No. 10. On the other hand, I've had a lot of private messages of support from members of the same government saying we all know you're right; stand firm. I was greatly helped, it has to be said, by the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself going on the record to say what I'd said about his treatment at the hands of the Prime Minister's goons was absolutely accurate. This morning in another Sunday newspaper, they've got hold of a tape of one of the aides who I described an incident of him being on the end of Gordon Brown's rather volcanic temper, and a tape of him substantiating it. I just wish instead of flatly denying everything, they could sometimes be a bit more grown up and say well Andrew Rawnsley does have a point.

ANDREW MARR:

Well Peter Mandelson on this show last week …

ANDREW RAWNSLEY:

Yes, I saw him.

ANDREW MARR:

Well he did say you know he is a very passionate man who does get angry and what's wrong with that? And perhaps that's the best defence?

ANDREW RAWNSLEY:

It probably is. I would say there's a diff… I have no problem with passion or strength in politicians. I want that. I have more of a problem with abusive behaviour, even if it's just verbal abuse, to junior members of staff who can't of course answer back.

ANDREW MARR:

Yeah, answer back. Okay. Well that book is out I think this week. Thank you …

ANDREW RAWNSLEY:

Tomorrow.

ANDREW MARR:

Tomorrow. Thank you very much indeed for coming in, Andrew Rawnsley.

ANDREW RAWNSLEY:

Pleasure, Andrew.

INTERVIEW ENDS