On Sunday 24 January Andrew Marr interviewed Foreign Secretary, David Miliband MP. Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used ANDREW MARR: Now then, as we heard in the news another British soldier was killed in Afghanistan at the end of the week, bringing the grim total to 150 British deaths there. Like so many others, he died in an explosion while on foot patrol in Helmand. A few days earlier, the Taliban carried out an audacious attack in Kabul with the likely aim of terrifying civilians and destabilising the government. So from the outside, it almost looks as if chaos reigns. Will this week's international conference in London provide any grounds for optimism? The Foreign Secretary is with me now. Welcome. DAVID MILIBAND: Good morning, Andrew. ANDREW MARR: Good morning. Let's start, if we can, with some news just in, which is that Osama bin Laden is supposed to be about to be releasing another tape claiming responsibility for the attempted Detroit plane attack. Can you tell us anything about this? DAVID MILIBAND: Well let's wait to see what he actually says. We know that the al-Qaeda senior leadership are in the badlands of the Afghanistan-Pakistan border, probably on the Pakistan side. We know too that the Detroit attack was the first time that al-Qaeda of the Arabian Peninsula - which is a sub-group of the al-Qaeda, maybe a franchise you could call it - it's the first time, the Detroit attack, that represents an attack on the West rather than an attack within the Middle East. Let's see what he says, but it obviously demonstrates both the dangers that exist, but also the links that can exist between different terrorist groups. ANDREW MARR: Because it suggests that at the very least he is still alive and at some level directing things. There's been a lot of doubt about that, hasn't there? DAVID MILIBAND: Well let's wait to see what he actually is alleged to have said. I don't think people have been claiming that he's been killed, although significant parts of the al-Qaeda senior leadership have been killed. But the danger remains very real. You've seen this week that the Home Secretary has thought it right to raise the threat level back to the level it's been for most … ANDREW MARR: (over) I was going to ask you about that, yes. DAVID MILIBAND: … most of the period since 9/11 - in July, it was brought down - but it remains the case that we need to be extremely vigilant. ANDREW MARR: Two specific claims about the threat level made in today's papers. One is that it's connected to an attempt via India to bring down more planes; and, secondly, that there's a belief that al-Qaeda or their franchise, as you call them, have trained women to work as bombers - people who do not look like the sort of traditional bombers; "clean skin" so-called. Can you help us … DAVID MILIBAND: (over) Well, look, it would be extremely stupid of me to say anything about the intelligence - and I shouldn't so and I won't do so. The fact is though these people will stop at nothing. They will try every trick in the book. They will use advanced technology. They will use all the mechanisms of an open society that we depend on for their own terrible purposes, and they will try and strike at Christians, Muslims, Jews randomly. And that's why the conference that we're holding this week brings together people from around the world - 60 to 70 foreign ministers, not just from Western countries but from Turkey to (where I'll be on Tuesday) all the countries of the region and as far afield as Malaysia and Indonesia because they have suffered terrorism as well. ANDREW MARR: But from what you do know, this raising of the threat, the terror level is real, is serious, is not just something that's being done for no particular reason? I mean there's a specific reason for doing this? DAVID MILIBAND: Of course. We keep the terrorist threat to the United Kingdom under very careful scrutiny. We think it's right to keep the public informed about the general threat level. ANDREW MARR: Because I slightly wonder what people can do about it. You know so the threat level's been raised; we're all a little bit more worried or scared. What are we supposed to do? Not fly? DAVID MILIBAND: No, I think the word is vigilance. The people of this country are our greatest ally in this very, very challenging task that we have got, but the government has as responsibility to keep the threat level under very close scrutiny and I think it's right that we give the public some insight into the changes that happen. We don't overclaim for it, but it's important that we have a degree of openness because that's the way an open society and a free society needs to work. ANDREW MARR: But there has been some specific piece of information that has led to this happening? DAVID MILIBAND: It would be … ANDREW MARR: Okay. DAVID MILIBAND: … foolish and stupid to get into that for obvious reasons. ANDREW MARR: Okay, well let me ask you about another aspect of this, which is Yemen … DAVID MILIBAND: Yuh. ANDREW MARR: … because clearly Yemen is rising very fast on everybody's radar as a source of a lot of the trouble. DAVID MILIBAND: Well Yemen has been rising on our radar for the last 18 months to two years. Yemen is a society which has got huge economic and social challenges. It's running out of water, never mind running out of oil which has been its source of revenue over the last 20 or 30 years. It's important that people don't get confused. The heart of the al-Qaeda senior leadership remains on the Afghan-Pakistan border; that 60 to 70% of the terrorist plots affect the UK are linked back to that part of the world. But there is a real issue in Yemen. The fact that al-Qaeda of the Arabian Peninsula should have tried to strike in Detroit marks a new phase in their campaign, and that's why there's an important meeting on Yemen on Wednesday taking advantage of the fact that we've got this major Afghan conference on Thursday. ANDREW MARR: Well coming to that conference, it has been said that one of the ideas is to frankly sort of buy off some of the leading Taliban leaders - giving them safe passage out of that area, allowing them to settle somewhere else, possibly Saudi Arabia, even with a bit of money to get them going. In other words, to try and remove some of the fighting leadership of the Taliban. Is that the sort of idea you're talking about? DAVID MILIBAND: Well the vast bulk of people who go under the tag 'Taliban' actually belong in their communities. They are Afghans who want to be in Afghanistan - Pashtuns the vast bulk of them. They are not linked to al-Qaeda, whatever … ANDREW MARR: (over) They just don't like us being there. DAVID MILIBAND: No, they're pursuing local grievances and they haven't been part of the political settlement. I think it's very important that we say very, very clearly that dividing the enemy is a very important part of our strategy. It's the counterpart of a military strategy. It's vital. ANDREW MARR: So how do you divide them? Do you buy people off in effect? DAVID MILIBAND: Well they are rented by the Taliban. It's not as easy just to rent them back. The truth is if you want people to be in their communities, defending their communities rather than attacking their government, you need first of all to make sure that they're secure in their communities; secondly that they have something to do; and thirdly that they have a voice in their communities. Because these are on the whole conservative Pashtun nationalists, if you like. They're pursuing a local grievance. They need to be inside the political system. And one of the … ANDREW MARR: So we could see a government involving Taliban or ex-Taliban people in due course? DAVID MILIBAND: (over) Well former Taliban sit in the Afghan parliament already, where I was last weekend. In the South and the East of the country, it's very important that the political system is open enough to bring those insurgents who are willing to live within the Afghan constitution inside that constitution and inside that political system. And when people say to me should the Afghan government be talking to the Taliban, I have a very simple answer: yes, they should because it's their country and they need to frame a political system that brings all those who are willing to sever their links with al-Qaeda and live within the constitution into that country. ANDREW MARR: And to be absolutely clear, if all this ended with a Taliban government in Kabul committed to a Sharia caliphate state in Afghanistan, but without any al-Qaeda involvement … DAVID MILIBAND: (over) Well by definition … ANDREW MARR: … that would be acceptable? DAVID MILIBAND: No, but once you say 'caliphate' you're into al-Qaeda. Sharia is a different matter. It's the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan. It will remain as such. The Pashtuns are about 35 to 40% of the country. You've got to be very careful in saying that suddenly the Taliban are going to take over the whole country. There are Tajiks and Uzbeks from different parts of Afghanistan. So you've got 30 to 40% of the county concentrated in the South and East - Pashtuns who feel marginalised from the current political system. And I say to people very, very clearly we know that there is not a military solution in Afghanistan. The military are vital to help find a solution. The civilian effect of development projects like the one that Rory Stewart was running are an important part of that. But the military side and the civilian side have to come together in a political project because it will be a political settlement that ultimately brings stability to that country. ANDREW MARR: And as Foreign Secretary, how problematic is it for you that you're not getting the money that you were spending in Pakistan, for instance - what the Prime Minister called "the crucible of all of this" - and because of what's happened to the pound, you haven't got the money you used to have? DAVID MILIBAND: Well we've protected the money for counter-terrorism in Pakistan and I'm pleased to say that the money from the Department for International Development is being increasingly directed towards education in Pakistan … ANDREW MARR: (over) Yes, but the money that was going in is in real terms less than it was because the pound's gone down? DAVID MILIBAND: No that's not right because the money that we're devoting in Pakistan to counter-terrorism is rising, not falling. The money that we are devoting as a Foreign Office to counter-terrorism globally is rising, not falling. It's true that the overall Foreign Office budget is under a lot of pressure because we buy 120 foreign currencies and we're paid by the Treasury in pounds, but it's important that we defend … ANDREW MARR: (over) But within that, you are spending more on counter-terrorism in Afghanistan … DAVID MILIBAND: Exactly. ANDREW MARR: … and Pakistan? DAVID MILIBAND: In Pakistan, in Afghanistan, in countries of key concern. ANDREW MARR: Okay. Let's turn if we can to some matters nearer to home. Again another grim poll for your party in the papers today, suggesting an easy Conservative win at the General Election. You were reported to use some phrase I think recently at the political cabinet about there needs to be a "game changer" or something of that nature for the Labour Party to start to win people's attention again. What do you mean by that? DAVID MILIBAND: Well I think that we should pick up the gauntlet that the Tories have thrown down. They say they want this to be an election about change. So do we. And we will make it an election about real change, not change of … ANDREW MARR: (over) What does that mean? DAVID MILIBAND: Well let's come into that because for the last three elections, the Labour Party has offered more change than the Tories. That wasn't difficult in 1997 - after all we were the opposition. But in 2001 on public service reform, in 2005 on climate change and energy, we offered more change than the Tories. In 2010, the Labour Party manifesto will show that on crime … we're going to build on the fact that crime is falling and you're less likely to be a victim of crime than at any time in recent history. We're going to build economic reform on the fact that in this recession unemployment has risen by half the level it did in the recessions of the 80s and 90s. And quite remarkably, the Nuffield Institute of Health, which this week reported on health policy, it showed there has been step change in the way in which acute care is delivered in this country. We will take that forward with the chronic conditions that are an increasing part of the health service budget. ANDREW MARR: Well let me pick up on some of those. You mentioned crime. Very striking in that ghastly Doncaster story that David Cameron used the same kind of words about a "broken society" and something "fundamentally going wrong with our society" that Tony Blair used at the time of the Bulger killings when I think you were just starting out working for him. And I wonder whether that's because during the New Labour years actually society has remained broken at that bottom level? DAVID MILIBAND: I don't accept that. Crime in 1995 had doubled under the Tories. It's fallen to the lowest levels since recordings began. ANDREW MARR: (over) So life is as bleak and as hard for people right at the bottom arguably as it was back then? DAVID MILIBAND: If you're at the bottom of the pile, life is very, very tough, but … ANDREW MARR: It hasn't got much better. DAVID MILIBAND: Well I don't accept that. If you look at child benefit, if you look at levels of work, if you look at the provision in the estates of this country, there has been big change. But has there been enough change? No. We have to go further. There are broken families in this country, but this is not a broken society. And you look at the response to any of the challenges we face - whether they are local or whether they are international - this country comes together, and to say that this is a broken society is to misunderstand the nature of the country that we live in. ANDREW MARR: Because Labour said it was a broken society back in the mid-1990s and … DAVID MILIBAND: (over) Well we had treble … ANDREW MARR: … and actually if it was broken then, is it not broken now? DAVID MILIBAND: No. Look, how can you say that when crime has doubled, it's the same as when crime has come down to the low… you're less likely to be a victim of crime than at any time; when unemployment had trebled under the Tories? ANDREW MARR: (over) People … people don't feel a great deal safer than they used to. DAVID MILIBAND: People do feel a sense that this is a country where every neighbourhood of this country has a neighbourhood policing team. They do feel that this is a country where tomorrow the Prime Minister and the Education Secretary will show how every 18 to 24 year old who's been out of work for at least six months will actually be guaranteed a job, paid for by the tax on the bankers' bonuses. ANDREW MARR: Okay, you say you want change. A lot of people say well you can't really have change under Gordon Brown. Can I ask you directly when the last plot, that letter was sent out to Labour MPs suggesting that there should be a leadership ballot, did you know about it in advance? DAVID MILIBAND: No cabinet minister was involved in this. No, no … ANDREW MARR: (over) Did you know that it was happening? DAVID MILIBAND: … no cabinet minister was involved in this letter. Look rumours … ANDREW MARR: (over) I'm not saying you were involved. I'm asking you whether you knew about it. DAVID MILIBAND: Rumours go round of all sorts of things in Westminster. And you're the former Political Editor of the … ANDREW MARR: (over) I know, I'm just asking you whether you knew about it. DAVID MILIBAND: No-one knew that the letter was going to be put in the way that it did. But people were saying … ANDREW MARR: (over) So you knew there was going to be a letter … DAVID MILIBAND: (over) No, I didn't … ANDREW MARR: (over) … but not the actual terms of the letter? DAVID MILIBAND: No. No cabinet minister was involved in the letter. Rumours were going round of cabinet ministers resigning, of people writing articles, of people writing letters. And the truth is that this is yesterday's news, which has been corrected by the BBC actually for the original report that it did. And the important thing, the important thing is that we are … we have one leader - Gordon Brown who's leading us into the election; we are one team; and we are absolutely determined around a unified, single … ANDREW MARR: (over) You really are one team because … DAVID MILIBAND: (over) Yes we are. ANDREW MARR: … it was quite a long time before you came out sounding absolutely certain in your support for the Prime Minister? DAVID MILIBAND: Well I'm sorry, we are not going to give wind to a story which is blowing itself out. And when we have a blocked peace protest in the Middle East, when we have the relaunch of the European Union, when we have an Afghan conference and a Yemen meeting, we are not going to give wind to every story that in fact is going to blow itself out. We have one leader, we have one team, and we have a single overriding purpose, which is to make sure that we govern the country well up to the General Election; and then in the General Election, we offer the country real change … ANDREW MARR: (over) So Patricia … I mean Patricia Hewitt and Geoff Hoon are friends of yours, or they were people who were close to you. That's why your name was probably put in the middle of it. DAVID MILIBAND: (over) They've said themselves … ANDREW MARR: (over) What would you say to them now about the whole business? DAVID MILIBAND: (over) They've said … I'd say we all should be working for the election of a Labour government under Gordon Brown. And we should be saying this because there's a lot of nonsense talked about the divisions between Labour and the Tories. Let's look at this because we're accused of class war every time we raise the issue of taking on special privileges in this country. The Tories are proposing the biggest redistribution of wealth to the wealthy in two generations through the effective abolition of inheritance tax. I don't care where David Cameron went to school. I do care that he's proposing the biggest redistribution of wealth to the wealthy in two generations. And that is something that we should take on because we are … ANDREW MARR: (over) So non-personalised class war politics is alright, is it? DAVID MILIBAND: (laughs) The politics that says special privilege has no place in a country, in a modern country has been part of the Labour Party's founding credo for a hundred years. The commitment to equal opportunity, which is at the heart of everything we do and the commitment to social mobility that the Prime Minister put at the heart of the election campaign last week. That's what the Labour Party is about. And we discuss it on policy because remember this … ANDREW MARR: (over) And yet you see … DAVID MILIBAND: … as the questions get tougher … ANDREW MARR: (over) Every time you talk about this people don't seem to be listening. They seem to have made up their mind at some level about this government, and I put it to you that you're going to have to do something quite dramatic and quite different to catch people's attention. DAVID MILIBAND: Well it's right that it's tough to win a fourth election. It should be. Democracy should make it harder to win. And we have to produce the ideas that are going to really change this country for the good. But I say this to you: as the questions get tougher, Labour is getting better and rising to the challenge. As the questions get tougher, the Tories are looking weaker and weaker. And I think that over the next two or three months, we do have a duty to make sure that we set out our own stall as a party of genuine change, real change, and that we make sure that those threads that are beginning to be pulled on the Tory policy cloak - what do they actually stand for? Abolishing inheritance tax, bringing back foxhunting and isolating ourselves in Europe. That is not what the country needs. That's not change. That's driving with your eye on the rear view mirror. ANDREW MARR: Can you at least say that - because there will be a contest one day - that when there is a contest to be Labour Leader, you'll be part of that? DAVID MILIBAND: That is not the … We are focused 110% on the fact that there is a General Election coming in three or four months and there is a country to run. ANDREW MARR: Because you know your critics have said that you've bottled it, frankly, several times. DAVID MILIBAND: I am a battler for the things that I believe in, and I am battling to support Gordon Brown's Labour government, deliver change for this country … ANDREW MARR: A fighter, not a quitter? DAVID MILIBAND: A battler. I think fighter, not quitter has been coined by somebody else. ANDREW MARR: I think it has. DAVID MILIBAND: Alright. ANDREW MARR: Okay. Let me ask you … You were talking about tough questions. Let me ask you about an arena for tough questions, which has been the Chilcott Inquiry, because without going into the details of what one mandarin or another or politician has been saying, there has been a pretty clear story that there were very, very senior people all around the shop, including above all in the Foreign Office, who were very unhappy about the legal premise for going to war. Are you corporately as it were, sitting in the Foreign Office, really learning lessons from all of this? Can you say that this is a route to war that we will never take as a country again? Is there an element of regret, if not embarrassment, about the way that happened? DAVID MILIBAND: Well there's a lot of questions there. ANDREW MARR: Yuh. DAVID MILIBAND: The legal issues were dealt with by the Attorney General and will be examined by the Chilcott Inquiry, and that's right. Secondly, was Iraq a divisive issue in all sections of British society? Obviously it was and it will no doubt remain so. Thirdly, are we learning lessons? Yes we are - first of all in Iraq and elsewhere. And we will continue to learn those lessons because the truth is it's been far harder to win the peace in Iraq than to win the war. And, as the Prime Minister said, the post-war planning needed to be far, far better. That's absolutely evident - no doubt there'll be more from the Chilcott Inquiry when that comes out - but I think we are an organisation … ANDREW MARR: (over) In some respects it could be said that the government at the time failed to listen properly to the Foreign Office. The Foreign Office was saying all the way through - actually you have to think really hard about what you do in Iraq after the war. It's a very complicated situation. And yet … DAVID MILIBAND: Well look … ANDREW MARR: … we went to war without much of that. DAVID MILIBAND: Look, it's tempting for me to say of course the Foreign Office always gets it right, but that's not true. It is a corporate decision. Those decisions are very, very difficult. They are made by people who get into the issues very, very carefully, as Jack Straw and Tony Blair will show. And of course we've got to learn, but it's a corporate exercise. And one of the things about for… ANDREW MARR: (over) Just on that though. You mentioned Jack Straw. He said, I think, that the government was still "haunted" by this. Is that a word that you'd accept? DAVID MILIBAND: Look, a lot of people have been killed in Iraq - a lot of our people and a lot of Iraqis - so the stakes were very high and the consequences are very long-term. And over the next two months, as we run up to the Iraqi elections in March, there's going to be a decisive period in the history of Iraq - whether it can build a more pluralist democracy in the middle of the Middle East. So of course these are massive issues of life and death. And actually it's 250 British soldiers who have been killed in Afghanistan, not the 150 that you said at the beginning, and that is a … we think about that every day. If you're in government, whether or not you go to Afghanistan often - as I or the Prime Minister or the Defence Secretary do, we're asking very young and very brave people - in the main in the armed forces but also … ANDREW MARR: (over) And is it worth it? DAVID MILIBAND: It is worth it because our territorial integrity as a country has never been safer. This country has never been more secure from invasion. But you or I going about our business in our country or around the world are less safe because of this phenomenon of international terrorism. ANDREW MARR: Let's just finish off by asking you about two British people who certainly are not safe - the Chandlers - because there have been suggestions that the intermediaries came quite close to a deal with their kidnappers to hand over money but that the Foreign Office has in some way either blocked that or been very slow to act and that their situation is now desperate. DAVID MILIBAND: Well no, that's just not right. Our position is absolutely clear. The British government never makes substantive concessions to hostage takers, including in respect of ransom payments, and we always advise people that. Can we stop private individuals? No, we can't, but we have a very clear policy of our own and the British government is absolutely clear that it's in all of our interest. Are we working night and day on the Chandlers' case as well as of a small number of other British citizens who have been kidnapped around the world? Yes we are and we're doing so with the rest of the government. ANDREW MARR: Foreign Secretary, for now thank you very much. DAVID MILIBAND: Thank you. INTERVIEW ENDS
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