The Tories want pupils to start vocational education at 13 to help overcome the UK's skills shortage.

Shadow education secretary Damian Green makes the recommendation after government figures suggested that almost a quarter of companies reported a skills shortage last year.

Mr Green said assessment of vocational courses should be carried out in the workplace wherever possible, to meet better the needs of business, with employers even becoming involved in assessment.

He said it was "sensible" to focus on this rather than increasing the number of university students.

Do you think children should start training for the workplace at 13? Send us your views.

This debate is now closed. Read your comments below.

Your reaction:

Germany has a dual educational system that has worked very well. Pupils can chose whether they want to go to higher education at the age of 15 or 16 (and that includes engineering schools) or go into vocational training. They work as apprentices for a company that is licensed to educate and go to school once a week to learn the theoretical basis for their training (and yes, that also includes accounting classes for sales-people and not just IT-skills for electricians). This training takes three years. And after that they are examined. And this produces not cowboy builders, but people who know their profession. Why the UK has decided to opt out of such a system and has produced so many useless "craftsmen and women" beats me. One more reason for the decline in manufacturing in this country?
Conny, UK/Germany

The academic system fails 70% of children - training is the way forward for children who are not academic and "granny" type training works - the military training system shows this - write offs from the academic system are developed to their full potential by training - some to very high academic standard because training picks up on the missed ability from the academic system.
Daniel Connor, England

Vocational education at 13 is another nail into the coffin of childhood Mark, UK

Our education system is designed to produce workers and managers to bring wealth to this country. For example, business academies replacing schools. This country is losing learning for the sake of learning and ignoring sport, art, literature and music because they do not raise our GDP. The Conservative idea for vocational education at 13 is another nail into the coffin of childhood. We need to place less on personal and national wealth and more on community and personal well being. If we carry on the way we are, we will have a country of businessmen and lawyers and very little else. Mind you we can outsource the rest to Asia and India!
Mark, UK

What we have in this country is not so much a "skills" shortage as an "education" shortage. Young people seem to emerge from the current educational system with a long list of high-grade exam passes yet very little in the way of general knowledge. Indeed, often they appear not to have any real in-depth understanding even of the subjects in which they have apparently scored highly in exams. Something is very wrong with an education system which sends young people so far off on a tangent to real learning.
David Hazel, UK

I am all for vocational training in schools. In today's society young people are not aware of the scope of trades/opportunities available and if they are given a taste of this in school a good many of them would decide to follow these career paths instead of taking 'mickey mouse' courses at uni which will end up getting them no further than a call centre on a lousy wage when they could be better suited, and get much more job satisfaction doing a completely different kind of job. There seems to be a growing consensus in Britain that to get on you must have a university degree.
Sharron Richardson, Scotland

One thing schools should be forced to do more than they do is inform pupils and teach them how to collect the information themselves about where the demand in the labour market is. The problem is that the school system is misleading people into thinking that a degree is the only way to a good job. That way, students would head for where the demand is. However, measures would need to be taken to ensure that such a system would not be sabotaged by greedy employers making bogus forecasts about shortages to ensure that there is an oversupply in their favour, as happened during the tech boom with IT skills.
Graeme Phillips, Germany, normally UK

Childhood is becoming so short these days let children be children while they still can Dawn Chinnery, England

No I do not feel that children should start vocational training as early as suggested by the Conservatives. I, myself am 23 and have been through GCSE, A levels and University and have only just found a vocation I enjoy and am good at. If asked at 13 what I wanted to train in and had done so I would now be a vet which is no where near the Project Manager I am now. Children at that age have no real idea what they want to do. Childhood is becoming so short these days let children be children while they still can.
Dawn Chinnery, England

I work for a college dept and YES definitely students should start training for work at 13 if they are not academic. It will prevent a lot of bad behaviour because a pupil is not keeping up in certain areas. I left school at 15 and my mother at 14, we were ready for the adult world then!
Norma McCloud, UK

I totally agree with this. 100%. Let's keep the aspirations of the lower classes where they should be - in service to the rich and powerful. The younger we train them to accept this the better for us all. Leave my children to go to University to train to run the country and the economy and leave the middle class to do whatever it is they do!
Victor, London.

It would be far better to start to teach children to think. In that way, once a vocation becomes outmoded, they could work out a new solution for themselves.
MJR Peel, Netherlands

We seem to have forgotten that education is about more than making people useful for business - it is about personal/mental/emotional fulfilment too. And what after all is business supposed to be for, if not for making our lives (supposedly) easier/better/longer? Business is not the focal point of society we are, and whilst I'm all for teaching young people what they need as well as what they enjoy, we'd do well to remember that children are not just 'future workers', they are people too.
Katherine, UK

No - children should be encouraged to learn what they want to learn, and not forced down a vocational path that the older generation deem suitable for them. There was a skills shortage in the IT industry some years ago - after being convinced to walk the IT path at school, I now find myself with an IT degree, in a saturated, stagnant employment market, moving rapidly towards decline. IT jobs are becoming less secure, and increasingly difficult to find. I certainly don't want the same situation for today's children, as a direct result our selfishness and incompetence.
Paul H, UK

The idea is excellent, it would save me, as a supply teacher, trying to keep 14 and 15 year-olds who want to be out Bricklaying, Plastering, Plumbing etc with their Dad/Uncle or whoever, from causing havoc in schools. ROSLA was an educational disaster whose main role was to reduce the dole queues in the mid 70's, it has introduced masses of disillusioned and disaffected children into the later years of secondary education, who, thanks to our PC society cannot be dealt with easily and consume an inordinate amount of time, effort and bleed cash from our education system.

In my opinion are two other steps needed in this "back to the future" idea. a) No child will be allowed to take up this training until they pass a 'Matriculation' test in Reading, Writing and simple arithmetic, b) we need to empower the old Guilds so that Plumbers/Bricklayers etc can only work if licensed by a Guild, and that licence would come with the responsibility to take on and train apprentices. If this means problems for our "big companies" then tough, we need to recreate the class of skilled and responsible workers who, if they choose, can work for larger companies, but whose qualifications and responsibilities are personal ones to their Guilds.
John, UK

Training is no substitute for education Chaz Topping, UK

Training is no substitute for education. If this had been adopted 30 years ago we would have a lot of unemployed well trained manufacturers around. Vocational training is a very convenient method of mapping an individual's life out for them and setting a ceiling on their expectations. Nice to see the Tories returning to their core values of enforcing inequality wherever possible.
Chaz Topping, UK

Bring back a proper apprenticeship and not the quick fix NVQ type 'qualifications'. My husband served a five year apprenticeship and spent the first year making tea and sweeping up. The second year was dedicated to learning about and taking care of the tools of the trade (still making tea and sweeping up!). At the end of his five years he became a fully qualified plumber/pipe fitter - highly skilled in all varieties - from domestic to industrial. He can plumb in a toilet/ central heating in a home or install a plant room in a hospital or an ocean going ship. Get the basics right and the foundations are there for life.
Rene, UK

If companies have such a staggering skills shortage, why have so many of them slashed their training budgets? You can't have your cake and eat it.
Martin, UK

I think it's a great idea. Start vocational training at 13 and you will direct the future workforce into such useful trades as plumbing, engineering and production, instead of just churning out another generation of useless Media Studies, Business Management and Psychology graduates. We need more wealth producers to offset the huge numbers of wealth leeches that the current degrees-with-everything system churns out.
Chris Hollett, UK

Ideally primary and secondary education teaches us how to acquire skills, rather than those skills themselves. This gives us a lot more flexibility in life later on. It is very important that we learn to analyse, communicate, discuss, calculate, and form opinions, before being taught plumbing or accountancy. So no, I think vocational training should be done later, rather than earlier.
John, UK

You can only teach someone a skill if they have the basics i.e. reading, writing and maths. Some people seem to think that you don't require these, of course you do, how are you supposed to read the Health and Safety documentation, pass your Safety Certificate or "read a drawing", work out the length of materials you require etc. If the basics aren't in place then that person becomes a liability on the shop floor or building site and then of course you have the Insurance Companies increasing the premiums so you than have more Companies going out of business. The apprentice training scheme (the old style) not the new politically correct version worked well enough. The old saying comes to mind "if it works why fix it".
E Sloan, England

Rather than differentiating between academic and vocational training, I'd rather ALL students - and that includes university students - were better prepared for the business environment. That doesn't necessarily mean training in a trade or profession, but should certainly include conducting themselves in a disciplined and professional manner, and familiarity with the jargon and expectations of the business world.
Andy Millward, United Kingdom

Companies have brought the skills shortage on themselves Colin McKenzie, UK

Companies have brought the skills shortage on themselves by spending their recruitment budget on looking for people with exactly the skills required instead of finding people who want to learn and training them. There are too many people out there who could easily do jobs they aren't even considered for because they can't tick the right boxes on their CVs.
Colin McKenzie, UK

Yes, definitely. Our children are over-educated academically for the workplace but under-educated for living healthy, safe, socially aware, well-balanced lives.
Maggi Cook, UK

Encouragement of apprenticeships is a great idea but 13 is perhaps a little early to irrevocably commit your time to something you may not yet be sure is your vocation. Perhaps 15 would be a better age to consider?
Carol, UK

I have two sons. One has a degree and works in IT making good money. The other is a highly skilled craftsman whose work can be seen in some of the most important and prestigious buildings both here and abroad who earns about half of what his brother does. I am equally proud of both my sons but on more than one occasion have been commiserated with because only one of them has made a success of his life! Until we value people who work with their hands as highly as the more academic of us this problem will never go away.
Suzi, UK

True, most kids don't know what career they want to go into at 13. I still don't at 21 - but I have had lots of varied work along the way, and preparation for this is vital. Why should people be forced to only ever have one career anyway? Many people change careers throughout their lives - being more rounded and having some vocational training will make it even easier for them to achieve this.
Sion, UK

Proposals like this are misguided since there seems to be no appreciation for the workplace of the future Jolzon, UK

Proposals like this are misguided since there seems to be no appreciation for the workplace of the future. The rate of change is accelerating and the workplace of 2013 will be considerably more 'virtual' than it is today. A diet of the internet and megabytes coupled with a growing sense of individualism and a 'I don't want a nine to five' attitude makes vocational studies seem rather pointless... Instead, it would pay to harness innovation and creative thinking balanced with an appreciation of nature, geography, language and so on...
Jolzon, UK

I think this is a very good idea, my brother hated school which was academic but really enjoyed spending his spare time fixing things and playing around with motors. He went to become a mechanic and now he can fix most cars, lorries and vans and also earns a good salary. I went the academic route as it was for me and became a teacher. What I am saying is we are all different and the education system should reflect this. It seems we have too much emphasis on getting a degree in any subject and not developing people's real abilities and aptitudes to benefit society.
Andrew, UK

Trying to overcome the skills shortage is a good idea, but I don't think its going to work as young people don't want manual jobs any more. Why be a plumber and spend your days up to your elbows in someone's sink sludge when you could get a Mickey Mouse degree and sit at a nice desk all day? No-one aspires to be a blue collar worker these days, they'd much rather work in a call centre and claim to be white collar workers instead. This is what happens when the working classes decide they'd rather be middle class.
Kaye, UK

So at the age of 13 we are already deciding who will take on the manual jobs and who will head for University; I bet there will be damn few offspring of the middle classes doing their GCSE in plumbing.
Gerry, Scotland

Let the kids follow whatever field they feel happy with doing Bert, London

I do remember it was Mrs T who was instrumental in companies dropping apprentice training that has led to a chronic skills shortage. The companies are also to blame for wanting skilled labour but failing to ensure adequate training remained in place. Meanwhile Labour's idea to make everyone a brain surgeon is clearly wrong. Let the kids follow whatever field they feel happy with doing.
Bert, London

It's sensible to take a step back from this idea of sending everyone and anyone to university. I'm not sure that sending 13 year olds to work is necessarily the answer, but better preparation for the workplace is surely a good thing. A return to apprenticeships for kids who are less academic could also be a good thing and really motivate those who would otherwise fail to reach their potential.
Catherine O, UK

Why not increase the compulsory age for leaving education to 18? Give everyone a good general education up to 16. Then students could choose whether to continue to A-level or follow a vocational route to the workplace. A 16 year old is much better placed to know what they want to do with their life than a 13 year old.
Deborah Grieves, UK

When I was at school we were taught about different types of work and trades and our woodwork, metalwork and science were directed towards things that would be of practical use to us. We also visited various places of work, such as a docks and a shoe factory to see people at work and in the final year I spent some time working in a plant nursery and a ship repairers. This all seems to have been swept aside with the advent of comprehensive schools and political correctness.
Keith, England

My father went on to get a degree and an excellent job Amanda, England

My dad was working down the pit full-time at 14. His mother took his wages to and gave him a small amount of money to spend on himself. My father went on to get a degree and an excellent job. He's now enjoying his retirement in sunny Spain. Don't say it can never work, because history has shown it was probably a ideal solution for the whole family.
Amanda, England

It's an excellent idea. When I was at school you did GCSEs then A-levels, went on to a degree and a job. Unfortunately a degree does not mean a job now, employers want skills. If I had been better advised, I would have done vocational courses in engineering instead of A-levels which have never been of any practical use apart from looking good on paper.
Matthew Twigg, England

I was at school 25 years ago, and this was discussed, and thought to be a good idea. It is just getting business to participate, as this is seen as cost rather than investment, and Governments have just never been prepared to allocate resources to make it work. So it will probably remain as an initiative that goes nowhere - Again!
John C, Bath, England

I agree that something needs to be done about the skills shortage. But education is surely about more than just training people for the workplace?
Jane, Wales, UK

It would be much more sensible to focus on the existing adult unemployed population. Training these people will alleviate the skills shortage.
Roshni, UK

It is a basic fact that some people are academically inclined while others are more practically inclined. The former group are ideally suited to an academic career while the latter are not. If someone lacks academic skills but shows a great flair for garden design, plumbing or whatever it makes no sense to push them through the same sausage machine as the person who doesn't know one end of a spanner from the other but is a brilliant nuclear physicist. Allowing people to adapt their education to suit their abilities makes sense for the individual and for society, especially when we appear to have an oversupply of graduates and college dropouts and a chronic shortage of plumbers, plasterers and electricians.
John B, UK

I think it's true that we need more skilled workers and fewer "Mickey Mouse" graduates Phil, UK

I think it's true that we need more skilled workers and fewer "Mickey Mouse" graduates - as I'm sure anyone who's ever tried hiring a carpenter will agree! However, increased vocational training is only the beginning - we also have to help our new craftsmen into business; to restore respect to their professions; and to match skill creation against the needs of industry.
Phil, UK

It is a good idea from an adult's perspective, but I wonder if the 13 year olds will go for it. It is very early to make decisions about the type of job you want to do.
Anon, Switzerland

I think this is a great idea. So many subjects taught in schools and universities are useless once the young adults are out in the big wide world. Far better to give them vocational skills and groom them for better career prospects when the time comes for them to leave education.
Julia, Wales, UK

If it keeps them off the streets and out of trouble then yes.
Keith, UK

This labour government seems to be taking us back to the 1970s. Now it sounds as if the Conservatives want to take us back to the 1870s!
Ian, UK

The biggest skills shortage in our society is the ability to be a rounded person - something that yet more tax funded preparation of new business recruits is most certainly NOT going to help!
Lee, Winchester, England

As soon as the government realise that we are not all brain surgeons, education will improve overnight!
Paul, England

This makes sense. As a teacher it pains me to watch youngsters being forced into academic routes for which they are unsuitable. And we wonder why they mess about? This, together with the continued effect of the devaluing of degrees, makes the proposals sensible. Surely the country needs more mechanics and plumbers as opposed to sociologists?
Christian I'Anson, UK

At 13 you can't even decide what you want for Christmas, never mind a career Carl, England

No, because you blur the lines between childhood and being an adult. At 13 you can't even decide what you want for Christmas, never mind a career. Also, just what is the point of secondary education as it stands right now? Surely it's never been meant as a primer for what job you get? (or more accurately what job some tin-pot government think tank want to pre-designate for our kids).
Carl, England

Of course we should start vocational education at 13. Skilled workers are in high demand and we should be providing children the opportunities to experience the various skills needed in the workplace. Exposing children to a wide variety of education allows them to make an informed choice on the direction they wish to pursue. Certainly, basic courses in electrical work, etc. are of benefit to most people in society regardless of their career choices.
Chris Satterley, UK

I think this is a great idea, but will never work in practicality. Firms will be encouraged to let 13 year olds in the workplace will be looking for them to carry out simple tasks (making coffee, etc). But could you allow a 13 year old to work in industrial or construction sites (health and safety)? It won't work and will just be another failed experiment which disrupts their education.
Dean North, UK

I think this is spot on. No doubt some people will think it Dickensian, but we already train our children academically with no complaints of slave labour. It makes sense to diversify based on skills and to validate career paths that don't include the current obligatory 3 years at uni, which most of the time achieves nothing except a 2:2 in Media Studies.
Matt, Amsterdam, The Netherlands (ex. UK)