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| Wednesday, 5 February, 2003, 15:11 GMT Faith schools: Your views ![]() The Catholic Church in Scotland has announced plans to appoint a new supremo to promote denominational schools. The church said it wanted to dispel "the myths" of Catholic education. It said it was unfair that Catholic education had been associated by some commentators with negative trends such as sectarianism. Thank you for your e-mails. This debate is now closed. A selection of your comments is published below. If the people who support the closure of Scotland's Catholic schools think this will eradicate bigotry then why not ask the Muslim, Hindu, Sikh and Chinese communities that have their children educated in mainstream schools if this has eradicated racism? Bigotry and racism are firmly rooted in the way children are brought up in the home, it is not taught at school. This government and the executive are continually harping on about freedom of choice; if they were to take away these schools then that freedom of choice that has been with us for generations will be lost and the bigots who want no sign of a Catholic community in Scotland will have won at last. I was born in Scotland and educated at two Catholic schools. I never learned about bigotry in either. Nor did I learn about bigotry at home. My family, while supporting Celtic, were never allowed to buy the strips as that "just encourages bigotry". Where I learned about sectarianism was when I moved into the world outside home and education. This is just a modern manifestation of the attitudes and prejudice that the Irish (Catholic) immigrants experienced when they first arrived in Scotland. If the executive is sincere about a multi-cultural Scotland (and I'm yet to be convinced that it is) then it has to embrace all the differences that make us what we are, not just colour and race. Catholic schools are not a source of bigotry and intolerance, although I am sure there are bad teachers in all spheres of education. You have to decide what kind of Scotland you want. One that accepts immigrants and allows them to assimilate in some ways while retaining their unique identities or a Scotland where we all march to the same (flute) band.
Kevin B, UK I attended Catholic primary and secondary school but my two younger sisters attended a public secondary school. I really don't know what all the fuss is about. Both schools provided a good education for us kids and really that is the bottom line. I still practise my Catholic faith, my sisters don't, but I believe that bigotry is still taught at home and not taught at school. All schools should be allowed to teach Christian principles. So many problems in school are because we have gotten away from the basic understanding of morality. Are the Ten Commandments so bad they should not be taught? Western civilization, and the rule of law itself, is based on biblical teachings. The US Constitution is full of many examples . As someone who attended Catholic schools for a large portion of my schooling, I cannot sing their praises enough as far as education goes. Looking back after having attended public schools as well, I can honestly say that my educational foundation was built at Catholic schools. I was given attention when I needed it, even when I didn't ask as I should have (which, I do not care what anyone says, you will never find in public schools). I learned basic study skills that I saw my brother, who attended public school, never learned because he was never taught. The public schools he attended just expected him to know how. How sad is that? My parents paid thousands of dollars in school district property taxes for my brother to teach himself.
Terry, UK With all the talk about old schools crumbling and having to build new "superschools" - one for each faith - isn't it time we dragged ourselves out of the 18th Century and allow mixed denominations? It would be easy enough to have separate religious education for those who wish. Single faith schools unintentionally create a divide between narrow minded individuals. My mother was brought up in a Catholic school. As far as I can tell, it never did her any harm. Religion is something so deeply, intrinsically important to any human being who chooses to accept it, that it cannot be enforced by parent, school, state, or whatever, otherwise it is a false statement of intent. It can only be a true devotion if declared as such by the individual, hence any attempts by state or school to influence this decision are abhorrent to the very ideals which many religions promote. It is an individual decision and should be removed from state or school. The minute you enforce belief, you cease to become a faith, and are a joke. Faith schools are not just Catholic and Protestant. They can be Hindu, Islamic, Pagan or Shinto. All legitimate religions and all have their own version of faith branding. Do we really need to brand our children in this way when they are at an age where they are not capable of making such a decision? Surely children have a right to choose to adopt a belief outside of school if they wish, particularly since the existence of a deity is unproven.
Iain, Dundee, Scotland Children from different schools will always find reasons for rivalry, not always based on the denominational nature of the ethos of either establishment. Catholic schools provide enriching learning and teaching experiences to pupils whose parents wish the kind of ethical and moral education they exist to promote. Many pupils in Catholic schools come from families of other denominations and none, because their parents value the ethos within those schools. In Aberdeen, there are three RC primary schools and no religious bigotry in the city. Indeed, there has been uproar at the Orange marches which have been allowed to take place and Aberdonians are totally opposed to the concept of bigoted marches. I was educated and taught in Catholic schools and am a considerate Christian as a result. Religious bigotry exists almost exclusively in the West of Scotland but there are Catholic schools throughout Scotland. Please leave them be. I consider that the freedom of religion should be a EU right. As such the governments must pay the same investment into the education of every primary and secondary pupil. The quality of the education in non-religious subjects of the RC curriculum is equal to that of the secular institutions. So, in a materialistic and morally corrupt world in which we live in, the influence of the religious denominations in forging the personalities and human values of the younger generations is highly advisable. Schools should have nothing to do with religion except as a subject in history and sociology. Children should be brought up to mix with other members of the community and must not be segregated. That leads to prejudice, ghettos, intolerance - and violence
Peter McCluskey, Scotland The reality of our existing Scottish system is that parents have to decide whether to send their children to Catholic or Protestant schools - the non-denominational tag is mere window-dressing, with the result that a tribal identity is ingrained at the age of five years, even among the children of families for whom religion means very little. Would it not be better if we had a fully-integrated, truly non-denominational school system, the facilities of which could be available, on a voluntary basis, to all parents, teachers and the clergy of their choice, to promote their beliefs? This would relieve hard-pressed teachers of a burden, put an end to the tribal identification which accompanies our present system and, through time, force the Old Firm to rely purely on football enthusiasts for support I am not Catholic and attended an non-Catholic school. However I am a firm believer in the right to have Catholic schools - this is a democracy after all. It is not separate schools that cause bigotry, it is imposed on many children from their parents and peers based on ignorance and two football teams based in Glasgow that for most of the last 100 years have profited from these ignorant views. As an ex-Catholic I would say that Catholic schools have helped fuel suspicion amongst non-Catholic (particularly Protestant) Scots about the faith. My fear is that we are repeating the mistakes of history by not addressing this suspicion. I also worry that we are creating a culture of suspicion in this country by segregating our peoples - whether it be through Catholic schools or areas of predominantly one religion or colour. My personal view is that religion should not be preached in schools. I think it should be taught - it has after all been a driving force in the development of our species. But to instil belief in a child when they should be learning practical subjects is a waste of precious classroom time.
Peter Baird, Scotland I disagree that religion is something that should be kept to the church (or synagogue or mosque or whatever). Just as a child's education does not stop at the end of the school day, religion is a way of life, and being around others, and being educated around others with the same beliefs strengthens a community, and helps people with their chosen way of life. Frankly I'm quite amazed at the strength of feeling of some of the anti-denominational schools camp on this forum. The Scottish Executive are in the middle of their "One Scotland - Many Cultures" campaign to stamp out racism which I'm sure everyone fully supports, pity they can't extend that tolerance to religion as well.
Andy Ferguson, Scotland I didn't attend as a child, but after my public school education I sent my children to them. I agree that they are needed, and provide a choice, competition is good. In addition they protect our freedom of choice! It seems we are experiencing less and less freedoms, doesn't it? I grew up in an area with Catholic and regular state schools. Sectarianism was a problem in my area and there was particular animosity between pupils of each school, since this clearly set the dividing line between 'us' and 'them'. The schools weren't the root cause of the problem, but they did help reinforce it. Being an atheist, I certainly would not want my kids taught religion (rather than about religion), however if a large group in the community want to educate their kids in this way, then they should have the freedom to do so. I do not object using public money as it does not cost anything extra. The kids have to be educated somewhere. Here in the US schools paid for by public money must not be of a religious nature - this is deeply embedded in US law.
Danny, Scotland If faith schools are a breeding ground for sectarianism are single sex schools a breeding ground for lesbianism/homosexuality? The state should provide non religious education only. Religion should be taken care of in the home and in church, mosque etc. If parents wish to send their children to a religious school, whatever the faith, they should pay for it themselves. This is the 21st century - quite simply religion is for church - education is for schools. While we still have denominational schools we will never see an end to sectarianism in Scotland.
Rhiannon, Scotland Catholic Schools provide a rounded education for children, but have that little extra which focuses on care and respect for others. Catholic schools teach about other religions, not just Catholicism. It is the Humanist society which leads the fight against Catholic schools, because they want no religion at all. What is the Catholic Church frightened of? Children should not be separated on the grounds of religion, race, or colour. Religion is best taught via family, church, chapel, synagogue or whatever. Education in schools should encompass the basics of all religions - and also teach children to respect differing beliefs. As a teacher, I am very much in favour of RC schools. I attended RC schools when I was a pupil, and had a very happy time at school. At no time were we taught about bigotry, other than to be negative towards it. We learned about our own faith, and we also spent a lot of time studying other world religions, therefore encouraging an atmosphere of understanding towards people of other faiths. Around 18% of school pupils in Scotland attend RC schools. The people who believe that bigotry arises due to this are ignorant of the facts. Bigotry is taught at home, not at school.
Typically, it overwhelming appears that people want to ban faith schools due to so called breeding of sectarianism, hypocrisy and imposition of religion. I would suggest "intolerance" and "not judging" is still a one way street for those people. Catholic schools are one of Scotland's treasures. It is in our diversity that we show strength. Those who argue against diversity are sectarian. It is clear that the Catholic community CHOOSE to send their children to Catholic schools, and PAY for them through THEIR taxes. It is also clear that Catholic schools are very effective educators and that pupils gain much from attending them. There is more than one world view in Scotland, there is more than one set of values. Thank goodness that we live in a society where people are free to educate their children as they choose. Although I attended a (very good) Catholic school, I feel that faith schools are divisive. It was instilled in us that 'we were right' and other religions were perhaps sincere but misguided. They should all be abolished - starting with those in Northern Ireland as a major step in the peace process. Religion of any kind should not be taught in schools because it does breed intolerance. You just have look at world history to see that religion is the 'root to all evil'. If people do want their children to have some religious education they can send the kids to their respective place of worship.
Keith P., Scotland All of my schooling was carried out at RC schools, and now as a mother I don't want my little boy to go to a faith school. I felt the whole faith and religion thing was forced upon the students rather than taught, therefore I am now a weddings and funerals church goer. I for one do not want my tax to pay in any way for religious education. Religion is a private, individual manner and should be treated like this in all aspects of modern, secular society. To fund a faith education using public money is not acceptable. I also find the idea that public money can go into an activity that helps spread a single, particular version of 'the word' directly in opposition to the celebration of diversity so essential to multi-cultural society. Faith schools have no place in the UK. I went to a completely non-religious school founded in the 19th Century specifically to educate without religion. No-one was either discriminated against or indoctrinated with any views and yet the pupils all received a fine and moral education. Many students were very religious in private yet we all got on fine and probably learned to respect each other's religions far more than if we had been given a single point of view. There is no point to religious schools. There are Catholic schools in many countries throughout the world and they never appear to have this continuous debate about indoctrination and sectarianism. I think it says a lot about Scottish society that we can't accept diversity.
I would always defend a parent's right to have their child educated in whatever way they considered fit, however I would equally support the state's option not to have to foot the bill! The real question is, do faith schools educate children better, and if so, why? Then apply the logic to the rest. Possibly it's better because children appreciate being taught with a degree of moral values, including the traditional value of looking to education as an escape from poverty, unlike the completely amoral 'State' sector. I was raised in industrial Lanarkshire and attended Catholic schools while my non-Catholic friends went to non-denominational schools, yet we remained friends. We knew we were of different religions and generally, that was an accepted part of life. But there were more sinister forces at work, namely bigoted adults, from both sides. Catholic schools are not the problem. Would you stop children going to separate churches to eradicate religious differences? This whole debate is nothing less than an attack on the Catholic Church. Church schools produce the best results and parents know this very well. Most parents who send their children to church schools don't even believe in God and probably couldn't sing along to a single hymn. They choose the school because it has high standards but the moment you admit this hypocrisy and change the nature of the school its standards will collapse. Living with complete hypocrisy and harmlessly going along with what you don't really believe in is a small price to pay when the alternative is honesty yet educational mediocrity. The thing you always have to bear in mind is how you would react to the same story with Roman Catholic replaced by, say, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist or Anglican. I have nothing against Church schools (I am a governor of one) - as long as the school follows the national curriculum and helps children to achieve their potential does anything else matter?
Just as schools are forbidden from supporting, or being associated with, any political wing or party, they should be forbidden from associating with religion, or any faith. Children should be taught about many faiths, and be allowed to make their own mind up about which, if any, they choose to follow. If parents want their children taught in single faith schools they should pay for it. Why should my money pay for the promotion of someone else's myths and legends? Although there are Catholic schools throughout Scotland, problems with sectarianism are mainly local to the west of Scotland. Sectarianism is therefore caused by culture, not Catholic schools. I personally like faith schools because they are honest enough to say what their world view is, so you are able to agree with it - or not. However, I would object most strongly if a school founded on a set of beliefs abused this position by scaring children into these particular beliefs. Unfortunately, I have several friends who have been abused in this fashion, coming out of Catholic schools as guilt-ridden individuals living in fear of eternal damnation. The idea of preaching intolerance and sectarianism is completely depending on individual teachers. I went to a catholic school right up until university, and many teachers had a variety of views some of which differed from the other. It's wrong to believe that all religious teaching is wrong and immoral. My subjective experience is that Catholic schools for the most part exclusively teach religion from the Catholic viewpoint rather than Christian. They emphasise Catholicism over Christianity. There is lack of exposure to other denominations and religions. For these reasons, I would prefer the Vatican funds Catholic schools - after all the Vatican is a rich state and can afford it.
Yes, faith schools should not be part of the state system but be independent schools paid for by those who want them. As far as morality is concerned, Christian morality must be, and should be, defined by the faithful not the state. State religious education is a nonsense. It is wrong to segregate children on the basis of religion. If parents want their children to be brought up in a certain faith then they should teach these beliefs at home and church - not in school. Ultimately children should choose their own beliefs and not have them forced upon them within the educational system. I am presently in 5th year at a Scottish catholic school. I am not a catholic or even a Christian, I turned away from "God" three years ago. It may just be in my own school, but there is a problem. There is an attitude whereby if you do not agree with the catholic church then you are a problem. Other faiths are taught about, but their "flaws" are quickly pointed out. It is not the "caring, loving, everyone is equal" environment often portrayed. If parents are so adamant that their children be brought up catholic, then teach them about "your faith" yourselves, school is no place for such a divisive factor. When I was five, I went to the local non-denominational school in Scotland and my best friend went to the local Roman Catholic School. I do not believe that separate schools encourage sectarianism but splitting up children encourages ignorance. It is not a question of different religions, it is about splitting up children, some of whom go on to adulthood with misconceived ideas about other religions and races. That is where sectarianism comes from and I don't believe that five- year-olds are being taught the right message when friends are split up. Prejudice runs riot when you segregate people in every aspect of life and they never get to meet people outside of their own walk of life. If you look at the damage the "us" and "them" culture has done to relations between Catholic and Protestants in Northern Ireland, or Whites and Asians in places such as Oldham, it doesn't give much credit to faith schools.
I see no problem with single faith schools. They do not breed sectarianism, but evolved because of the existence of sectarianism in Scottish society. To try and ban them as breeding grounds for prejudice is sheer perversity. Some of those who wish to do so are motivated by sectarianism themselves. Those with a secular agenda are simply seeking to detach children from their parents religious beliefs in favour of their own secular agenda. Having been educated in RC schools in Edinburgh, I just don't see what all the fuss is about. We never had religious doctrine forced upon us, and were taught more about world religions than Christianity in RE. On top of this we benefited from an excellent guidance system, running on the Christian (not just Catholic) belief in forgiveness and compassion. How many pupils did we take in who had been expelled elsewhere? I certainly don't think that separate schools should exist because of necessity (anti-Catholic feeling in 20th century Scotland), but until I am convinced that I would have received a higher standard of education elsewhere, I would never support their abolition. Sectarianism in Scotland is an evil that seeps from the west coast, and has nothing to do with schooling. Football and the west are the sources of bigotry in our country, not schools I know people who have had children baptised to keep their schooling options open. In my view, my child should be able to go to any state funded school and expect a balanced education, without being exposed to the religious groups who wish to use schools for recruiting.
Peter Finch, England Surely it is a parent's choice which school to send their child(ren) to? If the schools are really as outdated as some suggest, surely the government would be able to tell, due to large numbers of empty classrooms? Single-faith, multi-faith, no faith teaching in schools: it's not so much what is taught, but how it's done that matters! Any religious faith can be used to indoctrinate prejudice and division: it's all in "how" the subject is delivered. Re: Ron Levy about parents funding their children's catholic education privately. I'll be happy to fund my kids so long as the government hands back the percentage of my taxes that go on state education. Catholics pay taxes too! I do not believe it right that the state should fund education based on religious or political indoctrination. I feel, however, it may be wrong to oppose people's choice in this respect so long as they fund this themselves. In France, religion is strictly kept out of schools. According to David of Scotland's argument, France should, therefore, be one of the most dangerous places on Earth. Perhaps he could explain why it isn't.
I was one of the first Protestants (and Rangers supporters) to be educated at a Catholic secondary school in Glasgow (Holyrood 1976-1980) and it did me no harm. I got a good education which could only have been improved if I had tried harder. I do not think that Catholic schools breed division or sectarianism. That is already there before you add schools to the equation. I did find it paradoxical however that in religious education class we were told that God made the earth in six days and then in geography class we were told that it took billions of years. Ultimately I believed the geography teacher! I would have thought that in these days of intolerance we would have learnt something. They should be banned out of hand. If you want moral teaching, that is the function of parents. Religion has caused nothing but trouble and all schools should be secular. The suggestion that Catholic Schools cause sectarianism is absolute nonsense. The assumption that Catholic education is the cause is totally unproven and goes against all evidence both within Scotland and outside it.
Graham , UK Who says that Catholic schools are single faith? Yes they teach the Catholic faith and the children are taught in a caring community, but certainly the school my children attend has at least 25% non-Catholic children. They attend the same lessons - except when preparation for the sacraments is involved - and they are taught the same religious education, but they do learn about other faiths and they have discussions as to why there seems to be such a problem with faiths fighting one another. I attended a Catholic primary and secondary and was never taught bigotry or sectarianism, indeed I was taught all faiths should live in harmony as they all worship one God - he just happens to have a different name. This isn't that hard to understand when you think about the different names a person can have - dad, son, grandad, uncle. I went to a RC school (St Joseph's, Salisbury) and found it to be a very positive environment. A born-again Protestant Christian myself, I experienced a lot of good input from the teachers and priests. I would definitely recommend the experience to anyone, whatever their background. The separation of children based on the religious beliefs (or simple prejudices) of their parents should be stopped. It is wrong to equate religious faith with morality; the imposition of religion on children is immoral. That it should take place as part of their education is perverse. Note that the church is seeking financial contributions from members to fund the proposals for a schools tsar. Scary! I believe some sort of spiritual awareness is far better than none and Catholic schools provide this to a degree. Far better though to educate children in all schools of their spiritual nature regardless of religion. Our education systems completely ignore this much to the detriment of our society. | See also: 04 Feb 03 | Scotland 13 Jan 03 | Scotland 22 Sep 02 | Scotland 13 Oct 02 | Scotland 06 Feb 02 | Scotland Top Talking Point stories now: Links to more Talking Point stories are at the foot of the page. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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