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EDITIONS
 Friday, 3 January, 2003, 09:50 GMT
Should neighbours report wife beaters?
Violence in the home
The Solicitor-General Harriet Harman, has called for neighbours to report men who beat their wives.

In an interview with The Independent, Ms Harman says a man who is guilty of domestic violence is just as much a criminal as a burglar.

She says attitudes need to be changed to ensure a blind eye is no longer turned to women's suffering.

She wants people to feel to compelled to act when women are harmed, in the same way as they do when violence involves children.

Should neighbours turn in violent partners or is domestic violence a 'private matter'? Will the government's proposal help to tackle violence in the home?


This Talking Point has now closed. Read a selection of your comments below.

Yes, I would report domestic violence that was happening next door, but I would do so with very little faith that it would do any good. The law is completely inadequate in this area. Domestic violence is NOT like any other attack, because it is abuse, and is therefore much more damaging to the victim. The police should be able to prosecute independently of the victim's wishes. That is what is in the victim's long-term interest.
Tim, England

It's a good idea in principle but I'd just ask what the police would do if the wife still refused to push charges. It could stir up a lot of ill feeling between neighbours and could also lead to the neighbour being assaulted. Most women, wrongly put up with abuse but I don't think the neighbour reporting it would change anything.
Kelly, Leeds

People can only be helped if they want to be helped.

Leah, London
Intervening is a good idea in principle but people need to think about the consequences and try not to be heroes - leave it to the police and professional services. A few years ago a friend called after being hit by her husband and begged me to go and collect her and her small daughter. I picked them up from their home where the husband was still present, shouting at me and telling my friend she was "welcome to go and live with that Paki [me]". They had nowhere to stay so I brought them to my house, where my friend spent a week running up a vast phone bill (talking to her husband and asking him why he wasn't "fighting to get her back"). Eventually she went back to him "because he's still my husband and we have a child together?" People can only be helped if they want to be helped.
Leah, London

My next door neighbour is a professional complainer who has done everything possible to harass my family since the day we moved in. We have had numerous visits from Police, Council (environmental, planning, dog warden), and RSPCA - all as a result of him making untrue and unfounded allegations. He even lied in court to get my son convicted of harassment against him. An initiative like this will have him on the phone and me arrested every time he hears raised voices. If someone has CLEAR evidence of abuse or violence then call the police, but unless it can be substantiated there will be no action.
Keith L, UK

I think you have to be objective about this. If I were the neighbour I would not hesitate. I would be on that phone to the police in minutes. However, if the neighbour was a young lady/young man living alone then I can understand why they would be afraid that the wife/husband beater would turn on them instead. Protection has to be put in place for the person who reported the crime as well as the victim.
Stephen Ajsh, Wales

My teachers wouldn't listen, the doctors wouldn't listen, the neighbours ignored it.

Anonymous, UK
My mother and I were abused by my younger brother, who was still a minor at the time. My teachers wouldn't listen, the doctors wouldn't listen, the neighbours ignored it. In those circumstances, since my brother was my mother's responsibility and since I was still at school, and since the authorities refused to help, there was no door.

Eventually, I went to University. When I came reluctantly "home" for the Christmas vacation and my brother started his abuse once more, I called the Police. Although my brother was furious and for a brief while it made things worse, he started to see the error of his ways and to realise how excessive his behaviour was. And he began to calm down, to sort out his problems. He went on a Prince's Trust course and began to grow up.

Now, 5 years later, he's a pretty model citizen (as 19-year-olds go, anyway), still lives happily and very amicably with my mother and everything's great. But she and I went through years of hell, with me having a breakdown once I finally escaped from which I still haven't fully recovered. And he didn't get the psychological help and support he needed.

Our doctors knew. My teachers knew. But they didn't believe me, because he was in his early teens, and my mother and I were well-spoken, middle-class, intelligent - there couldn't possibly be a problem.

If this is you, if you're a teacher, a neighbour, a doctor, a colleague, seeing a situation like this, hang your head in shame - and DO something about it!
Yet Another Anonymous Victim, UK

violence against another human being should not be ignored in a civilized society

John Gilbert, USA
Yes, not to mention husband beaters and child beaters. Most of the time it is not wise to stick one's nose into other peoples business, but violence against another human being should not be ignored in a civilized society. If I ever struck my wife, the last words I would hear would be "how do you reload this thing"?
John Gilbert, USA

Ok, everyone here agrees we report the violence. It's what happens next that's the problem. The abusive partner gets cautioned or even(oh no!) some Community Service hours - then is released. Angry, resentful, violent person decides to mend his/her ways and move away to avoid distressing their victim further? Hardly.
Carrie, UK

Anyone who refuses to report abuse of any kind whatsoever is, by lack of action, endorsing that abuse and encouraging it. Plain and simple. If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Interfere, intervene, report. A life is worth that much at least!
Susan, London, UK

Tell the police, but it is important to remember that if the victim refuses to press charges (victims often believe that it is their fault) then nothing can be done. We have been teaching our children for some time now that they should report anybody who abuses them (or attempts to). Perhaps this is another issue that should be included in education; ie if it happens to you it is wrong and you should report it, and if you are violent towards your partner then you are in the wrong and you should seek help.
John Lawrence, UK

I think that domestic violence is just as bad as child abuse. I had to report my neighbour and I did it because no-one should be subject to this treatment, and I would like someone to do the same for me.
Charmadean Lee-Hall, UK

Unfortunately dealing with violence in the home is rarely simple

Barry P, England
One Friday night some years ago I arrested the partner of a woman after he stabbed her in the back during a Domestic dispute. The man was kept in custody for the weekend, the woman treated for a Punctured Lung. On Monday at court the man was given a conditional discharge, the woman waited at the court and left hand in hand with him! Unfortunately dealing with violence in the home is rarely simple, and the end result is rarely what is hoped. Perhaps the main merit in this idea is that it reminds us all that any violence is unacceptable, now all we have to do is convince the Courts.
Barry P, England

As a child I was brought up in a home where domestic violence was ever present. The police were called on many occasions but my Mother was too frightened to press charges.
Yvonne , England

If my next door neighbour was beating his wife, I would certainly call the police. Only after I'd given him a taste of his own medicine first.
Mike P, UK

Violence is a crime. It needs to be a socially unacceptable criminal offence to witness a crime without reporting it to the police. Unless you report it, you contribute to it, and contributing to crime must come with the possibility if prosecution
Leslie Renfrew, UK

There has to be a line that keeps peoples relations safe from others that don't understand

DZ, USA
Seems like this could be abused to harass and embarrass couples. There has to be a line that keeps peoples relations safe from others that don't understand. Imagine someone on your street doesn't like you, and reports you to the police because you had an argument with your wife.
DZ, USA

What would the point of this be? OK the husband (or wife) is taken to court, given a slap on the wrist (thanks to the self appointed do-gooders) then released back into society to do it all over again.
Darren, UK

Any criminal assault should be reported! And the victim should be provided with every possible support and protection.
Barrie Martindale, Canada

Personally, I would report it. However, if you see a domestic beating happening, the chances are it will not be the first one. Whoever said "they know where the door is" was correct, but the victim might need help to make the break. If the help is provided and they still choose to remain with their abusive partner, there's really little anyone can do about it.
Neil, Canada/UK

I would do if there was the same �500 on offer as there was for shopping drunk drivers.
Calum Steen, UK

Yes - definitely, to this. It isn't always just a question of saving a life in terms of life and death, but also in terms of emotional scarring. Victims of domestic violence, be they wives, husbands, children, or partners, carry terrible scars with them. Reporting an incident may just allow a little more time for the wounds to heal - so far as they can.
Jenny, London, UK

How often have we seen a sad outcome and people have said "How come the neighbours didn't report it?"

Ron, Australia
There is the kind who is an angel to his partner outside closed doors, a person who not only uses physical violence but mental cruelty at home. This of course could be a woman, child or even a man as the victim. How often have we seen a sad outcome and people have said "How come the neighbours didn't report it?" If they have proof, they should.
Ron, Australia

As a serving Police officer I once 'got involved' in a domestic dispute involving my neighbours in the flat next door. She sought my advice and when her live-in boyfriend returned the next time to cause trouble, I called 999. The woman refused to relay her story and left me open to abuse, violent threats and damage to my property. I tried my best to be a good neighbour, friend and Police officer, but it is only the victim can help themselves by telling the truth. The number of times I've heard 'but I love him'.
Robin, UK

Assault is assault - why can the police and courts not treat it the same as when you're attacked on the street, taking the onus off the beaten partner and placing it in the hands of the law? If I heard anything like that I'd report it. No-one has the right to beat another person whether they have a relationship or not!
Cath Tomlinson, UK

Of course wife-beaters should be reported to the authorities! It's a CRIME! It's the duty of all citizens to report CRIMES - if they don't then they are committing a crime themselves.
Terence Gaffney, USA

Problem is, how can you be sure that what's happening next door is a man beating his wife? The only indication you'll have that something next door isn't quite right is what you can hear, or think you can hear, through the walls. Am I supposed to report every row that our neighbours have to the police?
Henry Case, UK

We live in a world of 'if it doesn't affect me, ignore it and it will go away'

JA, UK
Yes, definitely. As a child my neighbours ignored the situation with my father even though some disputes happened in the garden. Unless they were deaf, dumb and blind they new the situation. They then had the cheek to be shocked, and treated my mum as some leper when she had the strength to leave! I would have no hesitation to report any violence. We live in a world of 'if it doesn't affect me, ignore it and it will go away'. The only way we can change this is by helping each other.
JA, UK

Whether it's a man beating his wife, a woman beating her husband (a subject hardly ever tackled) or anyone beating a child - if you have proof that it is happening, you can't turn a blind eye, you have to do something or that person may end up dead. Any man, woman or child of any race or religion can be a victim of domestic abuse and you have a duty to help put a stop to it.
Richard G Hawley, UK

I am against the intrusion in people's life, especially between man and woman. But when it comes to threat the life of a spouse nobody should turn his face on this issue, and calling the police can prevent a sometimes horrible outcome.
Dwaihy, Lebanon

Of course these people should be reported, but it should up to the police to decide who is the guilty party. I believe in Britain you are still innocent until proven guilty.
Mr Laars Busholm, Sweden

Just a thought, but I'm sure I heard of a system in a South American country where the onus is not placed on the victim to press charges. Once the evidence has been gathered (photos of injuries etc) the State prosecutes the offender, with or without any further co-operation from the victim. That way, violent and manipulative people can't intimidate or apologise their way out of justice.
Tracey, UK

If people had a better view of our police service and courts then perhaps these government suggestions would not be needed

Nick, Canada, Ex-UK
Although no right minded person should be able to do nothing when a person is being abused, this suggestion is another step toward a total nanny state. The government wants you to shop your neighbour for tax evasion, dole scrounging, drink-driving and now domestic violence. If people had a better view of our police service and courts then perhaps these government suggestions would not be needed.
Nick, Canada, Ex-UK

I think it's a very good policy. Many wives who live under the violence of their spouses usually dare not withstand these atrocities. These victims are in the isolated condition because marriage is considered as private. If neighbours can report those wife beaters, there will be a lot of married women saved from violent behaviour.
Wei-Li Ko, Taiwan

Yes, a neighbour should report spouse abuse; it is a crime like any other. How could there be a question about this?
Hannah, USA

How sexist can you get? Any law breaking should be reported and investigated, but to focus both the public and the police only on men beating wives and not vice versa is dreadful. In any case, what are the police going to stop doing in order to focus on this? Somehow I don't think they'll be taking time from their all important traffic duties! Yet another 'initiative' destined for the scrap heap.
Phillip Holley, UK

Yep of course it should be reported. So should women who beat the husbands, let's not forget a lot of men suffer from domestic violence as well. It's just seen within society as weak for men to report it. So perhaps the next-door neighbours do!
Matt, UK

If one phone call can stop someone's life being destroyed then it's worth it

William Hunter, UK
Unfortunately we live in a culture where people would rather turn a blind eye in fear of a backlash. My next door neighbour used to beat her husband. Yes, I said husband. It happened most nights and in the end I had enough and called the police. She knew it was me, and admittedly I got some stick for it for a few weeks, but the main thing is that it didn't happen after that (or at least, I didn't hear it again). If one phone call can stop someone's life being destroyed then it's worth it. You don't have to tell the police who you are.
William Hunter, UK

PLEASE GET INVOLVED! My neighbours didn't get involved the night I screamed and begged for help. My Ex-fianc� beat me one evening. He wouldn't let me near the door, he ripped the phone out of the wall. So I screamed - with everything I had left in me. No response... it cost my babies life. After several severe blows, the baby and myself couldn't take it anymore. I collapsed, the baby died. Again I plead - GET INVOLVED! YOU COULD SAVE A LIFE!
Rebecca, USA

Yes, domestic violence should be reported as it constitutes a crime. However, there is a danger that by the time the police arrive the story might change and the husband and wife might get together, and it is the poor neighbour who will start getting abuse.
Suryaparsad Upadhya, Nepal

Once a neighbour called the police and I think it shocked him as he calmed down very quickly

Anon, UK/US
Being the victim of a violent husband, I whole heartedly agree with neighbours getting involved. Once a neighbour called the police and I think it shocked him as he calmed down very quickly. But the next time he was quieter with the attack and, in his words, he "did not want the neighbours to hear we were fighting". But in a nutshell - yes, if you hear anything please report it, it is appreciated... take it from one who knows.
Anon, UK/US

Report him? If the man next door was beating up his wife I'd wipe him off the face of the planet!
John, Great Britain

Most wife beaters are charmers by nature, to the extent that the wife often does not know what she has married until that first beating. Perhaps if every woman were not in such a hurry, and had a chance to see how her future partner interacts with others around him, she would see her potential partner as he is before it is too late. Love alone is not enough in any marriage.
Hazel, UK

Now you've broached the subject, the government will probably debate wife-beating and introduce licences.
Chris B, England

violence is not a private matter and should be reported by anyone who witnesses it

Lynn, Tennessee, USA
Domestic violence is not a private matter and should be reported by anyone who witnesses it, but it is not limited to husbands/wives, it also happens in same gender couples. My brother was abused by his gay partner for many years until he was strong enough to leave, and my son has been abused by his wife. He was wise enough to call the police on her and the court ordered counselling for both of them. No one has the right to abuse, mentally or physically, another person.
Lynn, Tennessee, USA What sort of civilized society would need to ask such a question? Of course they should be reported.
Thomas Carter, Canada

As a child from a family which suffered physical abuse from a drunken father and was scared stiff to report it I think this is a good idea. No one can imagine how hard it is on the kids, and especially the mother who may be too scared to call the police and even too scared to leave the relationship.
Simon, England

Domestic violence is vile and cowardly and has a far greater impact on its victims than is realised

Anon, UK
It seems sadly domestic violence is still a real taboo subject. As other people have said if we saw a violent crime happening on the street we would report it, why is domestic violence different? The scary thing about this is it goes on all the time often by 'respectable' people and is either ignored or considered to be a private matter. Domestic violence (and I write as someone regularly beaten up by my dad as a teenager) is vile and cowardly and has a far greater impact on its victims than is widely realised. Anything to expose the abusers and help stop it for good is to be welcomed. Keep up the good work Ms Harman.
Anon, UK

Wife beating (or husband beating) is assault. Assault is against the law. Everyone has a social duty to report law breakers. It's really that simple!
Bryan, UK

I've been on the edge so many times because she provokes me at least three or four times a week. At times I just want to be left alone but she goes on and on. I have hit her and hurt her. And she has called the police. I have had a chat with the Police and been put on 12-month watch. Now when she goes on and on I simply walk out off the house go to the pub and come home after a few hours and she's ok, as if nothing happened. TO ALL MEN; WALK AWAY
Mr X, London UK

By phoning the police the lives of victims and their families can be saved

Mich, UK
Whether or not the injured person will ever press charges is irrelevant. By phoning the police the lives of victims and their families can be saved. Any person with any conscience should be prepared to do this. These bullies need to be dealt with. How many times has domestic violence ended up in murder or will serious injuries. You should not have to ask for help!
Mich, UK

When I was a child and my mother got exasperated with my father she had a habit of throwing whatever small object were at hand at him - occasionally with painful results. Under Ms Harman's dominion my mother would have been carted off to gaol and I would be put in care, splitting up what was a caring, loving and exciting family life. I know people like Ms Harman mean well, but very often they cause much more misery than they cure because they do not think through what they are proposing.
Anon, UK

I firmly believe that the government should introduce a law similar to that in the USA where the police have the power to prosecute even where the victim is unwilling/unable due to fear to testify against the aggressor. This has to become society's responsibility if there is to be a reduction in this horrific crime for the sake of the families as well as the victim.
Angela, UK

Ha! Yet another tactic to distract us from the fact that there aren't actually enough police around to deal with any 'domestic' incident. Yes, all good citizens can report as much as they like, but the only people the police are interested in prosecuting are celebrities like former Tory ministers or former members of the Royal household.
Mr Garn Machaud, Leicester

regulations make people more willing to report domestic violence

Wei-Chu Wang, Taipei, Taiwan
I believe regulations make people more willing to report domestic violence. Sometimes women don't have enough strength to avoid getting hurt, but the police and those who may offer help can help the abused a lot. If we see somebody attacking others on the road, we would call the police and try to stop it undoubtedly. Such is the case with this wife-beating matter.
Wei-Chu Wang, Taipei, Taiwan

Typical of a 'Ms' to be blatantly sexist. Ms Harman should hang her head in shame. All domestic violence should be reported, regardless of the sex of the victim. Clearly she believes men cannot be victims or are not worthy of her attention.
Mike, England

What is the point? A member of my family has reported a serial woman beating neighbour to the police before. When the police arrived, the woman denied there was any problem, blaming my family for lies. It is of no benefit to anyone unless the woman WANTS help - in which case she should seek it herself. I am a young woman myself and after that experience, I would be inclined to ignore a female neighbour being beaten by her partner. She knows where the door is.
Anon, England

I think that yes men (and women) who are abusive should be reported to the police. However the police need to ensure that some sort of action will be taken if they receive reports and the culprit is not just released with a caution "not to do it again!" Just one small point though - would this reporting procedure be used to report people as abusers, when they are not but have just got a conflict with the person next door who wishes to get them into trouble?
Lindsey, UK

Yes, yes, yes. I lived with my boyfriend and his two friends. I was beaten. They knew. They both spoke to him and one tried to help, the other ignored the situation. I was terrified. The only way I got out was a few years later by my own strength. It took years to tell anyone and I still blame myself. He told me it was my fault, you see. Women need help. Even if they won't take it, offer it. That one time out of a thousand may save a life; a man or a woman's. Violence in a home is unforgivable. As is mental abuse - and they go hand in hand. After a while the bruises cease to hurt and the words cripple far more. A woman will eventually find that strength to fight. Many more people out there have been in this situation than care to admit. Christmas wasn't always such a merry time for me.
Anon, London

It sounds great, but the victims sometimes need to have it pointed out to them that the person hitting them is doing something bad and that THEY should report them. Love is blind as they say. I once saw a person try to stop a man beating his wife repeatedly in the street. When it got physical and the two men ended up wrestling, the woman started clawing at the man who was now grappling with her husband, shouting: "don't hit my husband I love him", as the blood trickled from her nose.
Brian S, Scotland

Yes - because domestic violence often kills

Ian Armitage, UK
Yes - because domestic violence often kills, and always does great damage; to the woman, to children involved, to the anxious family, friends and neighbours, and to the man himself. If deadly diseases need urgent treatment, so does this
Ian Armitage, UK

Why is it that whenever the issue of domestic abuse is raised, we solely concentrate on women being abused by men? When men are abused by their female partners it is far more difficult for them to seek help, not to mention the ridicule they face for "being beaten by a woman".
Tracey, UK

All abuse should be reported, sometimes the victim is just too frightened to help themselves.
Duncan, London, UK

Simply yes. Just as they should report any other serious assault, no matter who the victim is. This will save lives.
Dan, UK

What kind of question is this? Who in their right mind would think it's wrong to report such a crime to the police?!
Justice, UK

If the police simply caution and release them then the situation will be worse

Amy, UK
Surely the issue is not whether violent partners (of both sexes) should be turned in but what would happen to them if they were arrested? If the police simply caution and release them then the situation will be worse not only for the person who shopped them but also for the partner/victim.
Amy, UK

Of course neighbours should report such people. Signing a marriage certificate is not a consent form to be subject to violence.
Ross, UK

Of course domestic violence should be reported and dealt with rather than ignored. But will the likes of Ms Harman please stop discriminating based on which partner is the attacker. A woman attacking a man is equally wrong, and the same potential for injury or death exists. Violence is the issue, not gender. Wording laws, or even opinions, in a gender specific way is totally unhelpful and unnecessary in this matter.
Raymond Gray, UK

Surely this is up to the individual. It needn't necessarily just be neighbours but also other witnesses, or worried friends or family. A 'government proposal' won't affect matters at all, just an individual's perception of what is right and wrong and how it should be dealt with.
Manny, UK

A housemate of my ex-boyfriend once stepped over me when I'd been beaten to the floor

Anon
It won't help. People will inform the police (if they want to) whether there is an initiative or not. A housemate of my ex-boyfriend once stepped over me when I'd been beaten to the floor. Call the police? No, it was none of his business!
Anon

What about abused husbands - in an age where we are striving for equality, shouldn't these things be worded a little more fairly - after all, words like chairman have been replaced with inclusive words. Besides, I think the proposals will result in the police being called whenever there is an argument, and possibly in men being hauled away after one of these verbal disagreements. What protection do men have when accused of Domestic violence?
Niels Brandbergh, Sweden and England

Neighbours, strangers and any other witnesses should report wife-beatings.
TJ Cassidy, USA

Let's try rephrasing this: Should a responsible citizen report a violent crime to the police? Is anyone prepared to argue that they should not? However, what about help for beaten husbands? Once again, they are ignored. These issues will not be solved by ignoring them, Ms. Harman. And should we take it that you simply do not care when men are harmed? That seems to be implied.
Andy, Netherlands

Yes. Wife beaters disturb the peace of neighbours.
M Khalid Khan, India/UK

It depends on what is going on. Where a spouse (I note Ms Harman appears silent on the subject of beaten husbands) is suffering genuine violence, this is a serious crime and should be reported. However, most couples argue - the question is at what stage to get involved. Police do not have time to deal with trivial domestic disputes and care must be taken not to criminalise someone who merely shouts at their partner. On a side note, if the perpetrator of domestic violence is "as much a criminal as a burglar" then presumably they can look forward to a slap on the wrist and some time planting flowers, in line with Lord Woolf's latest proposals.
John B, UK

people usually end up reporting nothing as nothing they report ever makes any difference

Bill, UK
It's not as if people don't already inform the police about neighbours' domestic violence; they frequently do. Unfortunately domestic violence is a potential minefield for the police. If I report my neighbour's wife having two black eyes, the police will do nothing unless the victim has made a complaint. If I call them to an on-going incident they'll do all they can to calm things but will be unable to prosecute as the victim rarely wants to escalate their partner's violence by co-operating in a police inquiry. Sadly, people usually end up reporting nothing as nothing they report ever makes any difference.
Bill, UK

I fully support the proposal for neighbours/friends/family to report domestic violence - these men need every deterrent there is. One of the main reasons men bully women is because it's all kept secret, so to get them out in the open is a great start! I can also add with confidence that my friends and family would fully support this.
Melissa Dawkins, England

Without the willingness of the injured party to press charges it would make little difference if a neighbour reported anyway. Too often when the police are called the woman will defend her husband, or waste police time the next morning by withdrawing the complaint, at the slightest sign of remorse from the husband. I have every sympathy for abused women, but shouldn't the Government provide a more adequate support system for the abused to seek permanent refuge? Why should a neighbour become involved in a violent situation?
Mark Q, UK

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