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| Tuesday, 21 May, 2002, 11:42 GMT 12:42 UK Can football hooligans be tamed? Cardiff City chairman Sam Hammam claims he can reform the club's troublemakers by taming them with "love and hugs". Their Ninian Park ground has been the scene of a string of violent episodes this season, including incidents at games against Leeds United, Stoke City and Swansea City. The BBC2 series Hooligans has shown how Hammam celebrated the club's promotion in 2001 with members of the notorious Soul Crew gang. Senior police chiefs told the programme they felt the chairman's tactics amounted to an endorsement of hooligan behaviour. Is Hammam misguided in his approach to hooliganism? Or does a serious problem need a radical solution? This Talking Point is now closed. Below are a selection of your views: Knowing your opponents strategy, tactics and motivation is a key to victory. It's the enemy you dont know that will get you. Keep your friends close, and enemies even closer. Go Sam go! The BBC documentary was most obviously targeted at Cardiff City and should have been titled "Cardiff City Hooligans" and not "Kicking Off". As a Cardiff City supported I am ashamed of the hooligan element within the club but the documentary was unfair, biased and in my opinion, manipulated to ease the suffering of all Leeds United supporters who feel they were hard done by in their humiliating defeat at Ninian Park. The Welsh FA were right to fine Cardiff for the incidents following Leeds defeat but let's face it, Leeds supporters and even the players are without doubt not holier-than-though. Kick Cardiff out, relegate Millwall to Division Three, dock them 12 points for misdemeanours committed outside their stadiums. OK fine, but how do you intend to punish England for the terror caused by fans (and Welsh posing as English fans) outside the stadia in Munich and Charleroi? Make them play home games in Siberia ? Hooliganism is societies problem, and unfortunately football, the clubs and their genuine fan the victims. By punishing the clubs, nothing will be gained. I find the highbrow treatment of Cardiff fans by the English media a little hard to take. After all, the English can hardly criticize any other country's hooliganism problem. Hooligans are a menace. Sam Hammam is protecting them and in my opinion has no place in running a football club. What about tattooing repeat offenders with a capital H on their foreheads? Everyone will see them coming and get out of the way and the shame factor might stop some of their destructive behaviour. American football is a much more violent sport than what the rest of the world calls football - soccer. And American society in general is more violent. Yet American football fans are not violent. Serious fighting in the stands or before or after the match is very rare. Why is this? The whole problem with hooliganism is the glamour and notoriety that the offenders receive. The Soul Crew will be delighted to have succeeded in creating such a fervent media circus. It merely achieved what they wanted - a reputation as the worst, largest and most violent hooligan gang. They revel in the attention and things will get worse as all the other 'firms' will bring all their 'lads' to try and take Cardiff's mantle. Hooliganism can not unfortunately be solved instantaneously, and Sam's approach though maybe flawed is at least pro-active and is more sensible than some postings found here. By giving hooligans the notoriety they crave we are perpetuating a vicious circle.
Cardiff City have been a bit of a soft target this season. There was no riot at the Leeds game (at which I was present), but a pitch invasion the likes of which was repeated at every club which attained promotion this season. I don't believe Sam Hammam has any other motive than ridding the club of hooliganism. The London media have ignored trouble at Spurs matches this season and chose to ignore the trouble at the Britannia Stadium caused entirely by Stoke fans (which held up the game) while emphasising trouble outside Ninian Park over which the club has no control, in the return game. The truth is that hooliganism is still a problem, but spinning it as the fault of a single individual is ridiculous. When I was a young man, I had a lot of that thing called testosterone. So why have I never been violent? Indeed, I despise violence, and am frequently ashamed to be male when I hear about, or experience, these sorts of morons. It's time that Sam realised that he is a businessman and football club owner, and not a social worker. We cannot afford to have Cardiff City used by him to practice his amateur criminal rehabilitation theories. If this goes any longer on we will not have a club at all.
Waving a Welsh flag makes you pro-Welsh not anti-English. The saddest thing is it only takes one person to ruin it for thousands. Only takes one person to throw a coin and an entire club can be branded by their action. How fair is that? Makes me sad. What would help solve the problem would be a modern stadium. Why are people opposing building such because of hooliganism? It makes no sense to me. I think the FA should kick out Cardiff City from the league until Hammam resigns. They should only be allowed to return until they have a Chairman and board committed to doing something about the hooligans and not a chairman who clearly goes out of his way to socialise with them. It's despicable. There is something more sinister than football hooliganism at the heart of the current problems at Ninian Park. Since his arrival, Sam Hammam has flirted with Welsh nationalism and nurtured anti-English racism, eg the parade of Welsh flags on the pitch before the Stoke match. What message does he think this sends to non-Welsh City fans and players ? Top-flight club football is now an international affair. Whilst his cash and enthusiasm has brought some success, Sam's tactics appear at best, short-term, and at worst self-destructive. What every sane person watching BBC2's programme on Sunday was shouting at the TV was 'Why do you do this?' 'How can you live with yourself when you terrify innocent supporters and their children?' 'How can you possibly be that inconsiderate and self centred?' The comment from Darren Wells about 'defending the country' and going off to war was one of the crassest thing I've ever heard. Let's send him to Tora Bora and see what he thinks about it then. Stiff fines and extended jail sentences especially in other EU countries would send a chilling message to would be football hooligans; stay home or be prepared to spend a year or two in a French or German prison cell. I think word would get around quickly and the problem would shortly disappear. The BBC2 programme did 2 things in my opinion -glorify hooligans and exaggerate the issue making it seem to be a much worse problem than it is. Although a very good programme, I think it needed to look deeper into the causes of violence, it is a social problem not a football one. I think Sam Hamman recognises this and at least he is trying to counter the issue. Since this has been an issue for years and no-one has found a resolution so far, maybe trying something different is what's needed. I first started supporting Cardiff City during late 1966 and even then there was a hardcore hooligan element that attached themselves to the club. What everyone has to recognize is that through the years since then the hooligan element has never gone away. It's just been swept under the carpet especially during the last 10-15 years when the media have just not publicised football hooliganism as much in the hope that it would be ignored and die off. Some of today's hooligans could even be the sons of those back in the 60s and 70s. Had the trouble in the Cardiff v Leeds game occurred at Elland Road, the fine would have been a lot higher and the ground closed - Hamman is lucky to get off so lightly. Ultimately most of the responsibility lies with Sam Hamman and Cardiff City to rid the club of the hooligans. However, I feel that the local media needs to work in tandem with them. The Western Mail and Echo went some way last year when they published the faces of hooligans in their papers. This needs to be continued and stepped up. CCFC fans will not be surprised with the 'Hooligans' programme screened last night so why can't the local media report the many incidents and use name and shame tactics. There is a risk of glorifying the thugs but let their parents and employers see their behaviour and take the appropriate action.
Modern society will always have an element of violence as men feel more and more undervalued and less responsible for their actions. There's no point trying to reason or reach out to these people. Just use the Japanese method of threatening extreme measures and watch the problems reside. If Hammam's approach is right then USA President George Bush should be able to crush global terrorism by inviting Bin Laden round for tea and giving him a hug. Which suggests to me that Hammam's stupidity comprehensively eclipses that of the intellectually challenged Bush. Until the trendy lefties recognise that a lot of young men have a thing called testosterone, this problem will remain. Some have a lot more than others and in today's very mundane existence, a new way has to be found to dissipate this otherwise young men will fight each other. I was at the Cardiff-Leeds game and I can assure the viewers that the media wholly misrepresented the cause of trouble outside the ground following the game. All the arrests outside were Leeds fans and these were the troublemakers fighting with police. It is true that Cardiff have a reputation, but it seems that the media feed off this to create news stories. The media are the ones who should be held responsible for fuelling this trouble at Cardiff. A 20,000 pound fine ? The Welsh FA are a joke. Cardiff City (who are Welsh after all)should be kicked out of the ENGLISH league forever. We have enough problems to address without them. Sam Hamman is a menace to society. I believe his approach is wrong although part of the concept is right. The police are next to useless when it comes to stopping hooliganism. All they can do is punish it not stop it. What alternative do you have but to try and cure the hooligan instead. Treat the disease and not the symptoms. Handing out rewards though is not a sensible action, especially not with today's evil witch hunt media. Whilst I find the attitude of Sam Hammam and his faux persecution complex outrageous given the behaviour of Cardiff City supporters, I think that, to a certain extent the programme ignored the bigger picture. The bigger clubs in the Premiership (one of which I support) are often let off because their violence doesn't occur in or near the ground. Consequently they can sweep it under the carpet and pretend it doesn't exist. It's only when they have to play lower league clubs where the problems are much more visible that the issue ever gets aired. Football has a collective responsibility to sort out this problem. However, so long as it doesn�t impinge on profits it seems they are not interested. It sickens football fans like myself to observe scenes of violence surrounding football matches. I don't believe hooligans can be reformed in any way. They should be dealt in the harshest possible manner, after all, not only do they commit violent crimes, they also undermine an important part of our culture. I can only hope that if any hooligans turn up in South Korea and Japan, they get locked up forever. It does not look as if the police there are afraid to be as tough as possible, that includes firing live bullets.
We will always have a small minority of idiots with a low IQ trying to inflict violence on a great game. It's such a shame for the real fans at clubs like Cardiff and Milwall. Cardiff's owner is back-tracking and has no idea of how to tackle these thugs - his stupidity or naivety was shown at the Leeds game in January. The FA should have made more of an example of him. The BBC2 programme has just put football back years because it will send the wrong signals to the small scum that claim to fight in the name of their clubs. Those named on the TV were treated like heroes within their so called firms. They don't care about the club - just the results of trouble that there have been involved in be it in a pub or outside or inside a ground. How come no one got a chance to talk about anything good about Cardiff on the BBC programme? Sam is doing his best to sort this out but he needs help from everybody. Putting him down for everything he tries to do is wrong - we have got a hooligan element and don't or never have denied it but it is the same at every club. I only wish I could of gone on air to say what I thought of the situation but like this e-mail it will be pushed to one side. Thanks anyway Where was the smoking gun? Amid a programme full of significant voice-overs and heavy use of 'hidden cameras' there was not one iota of evidence that still active football hooligans were involved in Cardiff City's decision-making process. If these are known trouble makers who have broken the law then let the due process take its course. Any attempt at objectivity was jettisoned at the end of the show when, after informing the viewers the FAW had fined Cardiff �20k, it failed to mention Cardiff City were cleared by the same body of any responsibility regarding missile throwing at the Leeds FA Cup match. Why was this highly relevant fact ignored? Did it not fit with the editorial spin?
The BBC programme 'Hooligans' is not designed to help the problem by exposing hooliganism. It is just government controlling the media to position themselves in anticipation of trouble which will undoubtedly come in Korea during the World Cup. As the police have said, they can fix this problem if the government is willing to resource it, but it gets to much money from football to rock the boat. Sam has been the best thing to happen to Cardiff City, the hooligan problem was around long before Sam came. Now we have the media witch hunt. I find his (Hammam's) actions quite sinister. How can someone mix publicly with these people? He is not reforming these people - what next, cuddling sharks? Cardiff City and Sam Hamman are an embarrassment to my home town and should be shut down. After visiting Ninian Park as a Bristol City fan, I left with the knowledge that there are a significant minority of dangerously violent fans and also a scar on my forehead. As a disabled person I had to leave my children standing with my brother and friend whilst I sat amongst Cardiff fans. I felt powerless watching the throwing of bottles and coins into the away fans area. A few minutes before the end of the match I hurried to the away fans exit where I stood by the metal gate. I escaped with a glancing blow to my forehead. If the dangerous fans cannot be excluded then Cardiff should be instructed to play a season without its fans being allowed to attend.
Craig H, UK Sam Hammam knows what he is doing. Give him time. He has already changed the on-field and administrative sides of the club and he will eventually turn the rough hardcore element around. I follow Cardiff around the country and aged 15, I see a lot of intimidating factors in every ground I visit. This is made worse because of us being a Welsh club. Hammam may be ingratiating himself to the hooligan element but I don't think his idea is entirely unworthy of consideration. Some kind of outreach program would be far more likely to yield positive results than the tried and failed threats of corporal punishment, or are we actually preparing to give up on the whole lot as a bad job, dump them all in prison and throw away the keys. I don't agree with football violence one bit but why do certain clubs come under the spotlight more than others? A lot of the things shown in the programme were from two years ago. I have been to 17 away matches this year and have only seen one spot of bother. But Man Utd had over 100 arrests out in Germany and not a single word on the BBC News. After a match, imprison all hooligans in the football ground and leave them there for four hours. Let them fight amongst themselves, away from the public. Sam Hammam will encourage hooliganism and violence because it is excellent publicity for himself and his club. If teams and supporters are intimidated it is all the better for winning games. These problems are coming from a group of people who are obviously intent on causing havoc. As a worried parent what securities are the police going to offer me when I attend a game of football. Clubs whose fans (?) are constantly involved in violence should be fined and deducted points. This may a) stop fans causing trouble in and out of the stadium and b) make clubs introduce measures to stop these idiots from coming to see a game and club which they supposedly love so much. Point deduction would be more expensive than losing ticket sales from these idiots. Hooligans have been a part of the game of football for two generations now. The operations which have been mounted by the police have been ineffective at best so where do we go from here?
M J - Newport, Where does Hammam get the idea that hooligans only need love and hugs and our understanding. What they need is to be arrested and given an 8 foot by 8 foot cell for at least the next 5 years. Then maybe at the end of that term they will have a better understanding of us. When one segment of society, or the world population at large, starts to think that they can get away with loutishness or superiority misconceptions, the rest of us bear the brunt of the effects emanating from such self-centred behaviour. Such anti-social antics should be addressed and stemmed right from the cradle. When will we learn? Whether it be football hooligans, vandals, shoplifters, burglars or out of control school kids, the softly, softly approach does not work. Hammam is pandering to the hooligans instead of getting tough. This approach has not worked and will not work. Get tough! I believe Sam Hammam is quite wrong in his approach. The problem of hooliganism will only be solved when stronger discipline, even corporal punishment, is re-introduced in schools and at home. I also favour a return of National Service, not necessarily along military lines, but along the lines where teenagers are taught self discipline, self respect and respect for the society they live in. Hooliganism is not just a football club problem, and it is wrong to hold a club responsible for the behaviour its supporters. Hooliganism is a society problem, and the society as a whole is responsible. | See also: 19 May 02 | Wales 17 May 02 | Hooligans 18 May 02 | Wales Internet links: The BBC is not responsible for the content of external internet sites Top Talking Point stories now: Links to more Talking Point stories are at the foot of the page. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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