BBC BREAKFAST WITH FROST HOSTED BY PETER SISSONS INTERVIEW: FORMER SENATOR GEORGE MITCHELL, PEACE NEGOTIATOR JULY 7th, 2002

Please note "BBC Breakfast with Frost" must be credited if any part of this transcript is used

PETER SISSONS: Last week's July 4th Independence Day celebrations in the United States were the most muted for a generation following the terrorist attacks on September 11th. Security was tight across the country but it still wasn't enough to prevent a fatal shooting of two people at Los Angeles airport. It's unclear whether the killings can be linked to terrorism, or organised terrorism, but given that the attack was carried out by an Egyptian man on the staff from the Israeli airline El Al, there is likely to be a connection with the ongoing desperate situation in the Middle East. I'm joined in the studio by the former United States senator, George Mitchell, who has drawn up peace plans for the Middle East and for Northern Ireland - two of the toughest propositions known to man. George, good morning.

GEORGE MITCHELL: Good morning Peter.

PETER SISSONS: As you survey the wreckage of the Middle East peace process, what went wrong? What are your feelings?

GEORGE MITCHELL: Well the parties have not yet reached the point where the alternative to conflict seems less difficult. I think they will, I think they're coming to the view that life is unbearable for the members of both societies, that there is no military solution to this conflict, that the outcome is pretty well known by everyone, in fact large majorities of both Israelis and Palestinians accept the view that there will be a two stage solution and the question is how to get there out of the current difficulty.

PETER SISSONS: It's said that in Northern Ireland or the Middle East, your approach was no one gets humiliated when you construct a settlement. To some, you know the United States might seem to be intent on humiliating Arafat and the Palestinians - they blow up his cars, they blow up his offices, they say they won't negotiate with him, they'll have to elect somebody else. Is that a fair criticism?

GEORGE MITCHELL: Well of course it was the United States which, under the previous administration, which invited Arafat to the White House, in which the President went to meet with the Palestinian legislative council which has effectively elevated them into the position of partners for peace. President Bush has taken the view that Arafat is not someone with whom the United States can do business and has called for a new election - but there's a lot of demand for reform among Palestinians themselves.

PETER SISSONS: But what's your view? Can there be a peace without Arafat? Is it a mistake for America to insist on his being removed?

GEORGE MITCHELL: After the President's speech, administration spokesmen were quoted as saying that perhaps some resolution in which he retains a role but effective power is wielded by others may be the best way out of this - I think certainly it's fair to say that in the Middle East the statement by the President has caused Arafat's popularity to rise among his people and if an election were held today he probably would be elected. One won't be held until January, and that's a long time away.

PETER SISSONS: And any administration statement of that kind is bound to reflect the split in the administration between the hawks and the doves, the Colin Powell and Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney.

GEORGE MITCHELL: Well there's nothing new about that. Every administration in a democratic society, including here in the UK and in others, has different points of view within the administration. The President clearly sets the policy.

PETER SISSONS: What are the steps back to negotiation now? Is your plan dead, because it set out, you know, move by move what you do, the ceasefire and disengagement and settlement three and all this sort of thing, and it's all there if they want to pick it up tomorrow - would you change a word?

GEORGE MITCHELL: No I wouldn't and I think that's what it will come around to, whether it's our plan or some other plan is irrelevant, the important thing is to end the violence, to take a series of reciprocal measures - and that's a very key point, both sides have to participate in, with some degree of simultaneous action, moving forward to demonstrate good faith and re-establish at least a minimal degree of trust. There's no trust now. There is complete hatred and mistrust on both sides and you have to establish that minimal level necessary to move forward and then to create a situation where the politicians can take the actions necessary to bring about a peaceful resolution. I think it is possible, I think it will be done but the question is how many more lives will be lost before it is done.

PETER SISSONS: Is it a mistake perhaps for Bush to say the war against terrorism is all that matters? Too simplistic to say ... subordinate the need for a settlement to the need to win the war.

GEORGE MITCHELL: Well I don't think he has said it's all that matters - I think he does believe that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict must on its own be resolved, indeed the administration was involved there prior to September 11th. September 11th I think added a greater sense of urgency to it, so I think it's part of a larger picture but it's not the only factor.

PETER SISSONS: Northern Ireland, your assessment of where they are now.

GEORGE MITCHELL: When I announced the agreement, now more than four years ago, I described it as an historic step, but I also said on that day that by itself the agreement did not provide or guarantee peace, stability or reconciliation - that there would be many difficult decisions ahead, as there have been. Implementation has been slow, difficult, there have been many setbacks and there's a period of tension now but they've overcome more difficult periods in the past and I think they will do so again now. I think the path has been irrevocably set.

PETER SISSONS: But is there a case, as the Unionists would argue, for excluding Sinn Fein from government if their IRA friends don't let go? If gangsterism and intimidation take the place of murdering soldiers and policemen.

GEORGE MITCHELL: Well there is obviously some degree of criminal activity - that's true in every society, I don't think we ought to isolate Northern Ireland and suggest that this is unique to Northern Ireland. In the United States, here in the UK and in other places, ordinary crime is widespread and one of the most difficult social problems. My own feeling is that the parties and the governments who are committed to the agreement will find a way to work through this and to keep the current Northern Ireland government - which is an essential part of the agreement, self government for Northern Ireland in place and functioning.

PETER SISSONS: Then how would you tackle the present stand-off between the paramilitaries? The UVF and the IRA seem to be back on the streets - 40 shots fired at the last time out.

GEORGE MITCHELL: Well I heard your discussion earlier with the acting chief constable - I don't think one can assume because shots are fired they're fired by the organisations themselves, there are millions of people in Northern Ireland, there are plenty of weapons, there has to be, I think the British Government has said, there has to be some clear evidence before they're going to make that kind of determination and they're the only ones that can make it - I'm not privy to the intelligence reports or the reports of the chief constable now. I think the important thing is to keep it in some historic perspective. There is a disturbing level of violence now, and particularly at the points of interface, for the people involved it's extremely difficult, but this is far, far less than what existed several years ago when I first went to Northern Ireland and for decades before that. So you have to be concerned about what's happening but you have to keep it in an historic perspective. Great progress has been made. I was there all last week Peter and in almost every block there's a new apartment building going up, a new office building going up, a new hotel building going up - it's booming there and I think it will continue if peace continues.

PETER SISSONS: George Mitchell, thank you.

INTERVIEW ENDS