PLEASE NOTE "THE ANDREW MARR SHOW" MUST BE CREDITED IF ANY PART OF THIS TRANSCRIPT IS USED THE ANDREW MARR SHOW INTERVIEW: LORD MANDELSON, MP LABOUR DECEMBER 18th 2011 ANDREW MARR: Peter Mandelson, Lord Mandelson's been in politics so long, he remembers when New Labour was new. The Blair years were snakes and ladders years and he was busily ensconced in Brussels as Trade Commissioner working at the heart of the EU bureaucracy when the new Prime Minister Gordon Brown sent out an SOS. Lord Mandelson did help to shore up the Brown Government during the credit crunch, but he couldn't help win victory at the General Election. So according to today's polls, Peter Mandelson, David Cameron's use of the veto is pretty popular in this country at least? LORD MANDELSON: Yes and I'm quite sure that President Sarkozy's actions in France are you know pretty popular with his public and Mrs Merkel in Germany, and so it goes on. But the key questions are first of all the treaty that attracted this veto from Britain in the first place, we're now seeing it, what it looks like. It appears to present absolutely no threat to Britain whatsoever, has no effect on us. I mean it's setting out rules and requirements for the Eurozone, of which we are famously not members, so that doesn't affect us; and, secondly, it contains nothing that affects banking regulation or financial services, so poses no threat to the City of London either. ANDREW MARR: Sure. LORD MANDELSON: So you have to ask yourself what this piece of theatre was about. And actually I mean I think we all now realise it was whipping up a bit of a storm, a bit of red meat to throw to Mr Cameron's anti-European back benchers. ANDREW MARR: There would be a counter argument however made quite quickly, which is that it may not affect us directly but this demonstrates that the eurosceptics who said that a single currency would have to lead to a single economy and in effect (for all the financial and fiscal side of life) a single government are proved right. That under strain, this is what is now happening, and that terrible choice for Britain (and for other countries) to choose between your national democracy and your ability to defend … you know define your own future and part of this bigger block is now quite close in front of our noses. LORD MANDELSON: Yes, in a sense. I wouldn't use your term "a single economy". I would use a single … very, very large single market in Europe which gives us the sort of continental power and reach and clout in the world that you know enables us to match you know the United States and North America to our west, the rising powers to the east and the south of us as a … ANDREW MARR: (over) But you'd concede there is a democratic question mark here? LORD MANDELSON: Well yes, I would. But not because I think there is a single government in the offing, but because to enable the Eurozone to work successfully, we need more, not less political, fiscal integration in Europe at a time when, frankly, there is sort of integration fatigue pretty sort of common amongst the public right across Europe … ANDREW MARR: (over) Because in reality what it means for the Greeks or the Italians or the Spanish or others is that they would be told what their government could or could not do when it came to tax and spending and other things by the centre, by the Brussels centre, and (they would see it) by the Germans. LORD MANDELSON: Yuh. ANDREW MARR: That is a big democratic problem and for a lot of people explains why we could never be part of it in this country. LORD MANDELSON: Well it does raise a democratic problem and essentially it raises two immediate issues for me. One is that I think that Europe's political leaders are frankly failing to explain why, to justify the greater meshing together and integration that is needed in Europe. It's as if they've forgotten what the arguments are in favour of European integration or fallen out of the habit at least of explaining not just sort of what's required and how - which they're quite good at, although they could be a lot better - but why. I mean why do we need more integration at a time when, as I say, most people are sort of tiring and sort of becoming a little fatigued with it. But this is going to become more, not less serious in the coming years for this reason, and that is that we are entering a period - as we all recognise - of austerity, of tighter public spending. There's going to be a great deal of public pain during this period and it's going to be blamed on Europe in many continental countries who are members of the Eurozone. And, therefore, if the politicians don't get their act together, if they don't start leading, if they don't start providing a real sense of accountability to their public, so that they have to get out there and explain why … ANDREW MARR: (over) So bad politics at the centre, okay. LORD MANDELSON: … why what they're doing is necessary - if they don't do that, you're going to see an increasing public alienation. ANDREW MARR: (over) Yuh, yuh. Now you famously said that what this country needed was more real engineering and less financial engineering. LORD MANDELSON: Yes. ANDREW MARR: But would you concede one of the things that you know you wish you'd done differently as a government in the Labour years was spend less time and attention on the City and a bit more on trying to get this country manufacturing again because, after all, that's part of the reason why the Germans are doing so well? LORD MANDELSON: The City and financial markets and services provide a hugely important sort of part of our economy, our revenue and employment, so I'm not against the City and I'm not against financial services. But what I do believe is that our exposure as an economy to financial services was too great, our economy's dependence … ANDREW MARR: (over) Is too great … LORD MANDELSON: … on financial services was far too great, and we should have recognised that earlier on as a government. ANDREW MARR: Disappointed by Labour's showing in the polls at the moment? What's going wrong? LORD MANDELSON: I think what is happening, to be fair to Ed Miliband because his polls sort of bounce round all over the place, we have to recognise that the deterioration in Labour's polling position predated his leadership. I mean that disconnect between the Labour Party deeply and broadly with the British public started to take place in the years before the 2010 Election. And since then - again to his and the Labour Party's credit - we've seen votes, voting support coming back - chiefly from Liberal Democrats who voted for Nick Clegg and his party in 2010; not so much yet from the Conservatives who I think are still giving their government the benefit of the doubt. ANDREW MARR: What more needs to be done because you know an entire generation, including yourself, have (relatively young still) have walked away from frontline politics, not engaged in it anymore? LORD MANDELSON: I think that what Ed Miliband needs to do … Look, he's a chap with views, he has a position in politics and he has a project. That needs to take shape and become better defined during the course of the coming year. It's not New Labour, he's perfectly clear about that, but then he would say the circumstances and the conditions in Britain are not the same as they were when we were creating New Labour in the 1990s. Those were the days when markets were very much in fashion … ANDREW MARR: Yuh, sure. LORD MANDELSON: … the British economy and capitalist model of how we do things in this country seemed to be delivering, everyone's incomes were … ANDREW MARR: (over) Tougher times ahead. LORD MANDELSON: … incomes were generally rising. They're not now. And he believes that we need a different sort of social contract. Now there are dangers in developing that, but he has to navigate his way through and I think 2012 is the year to do that. ANDREW MARR: You missed your jaw-dropping gaff, but … apart from everything else. LORD MANDELSON: I'm so sorry. (laughter) ANDREW MARR: Thank you very much indeed, Peter Mandelson. INTERVIEW ENDS
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