PLEASE NOTE "THE ANDREW MARR SHOW" MUST BE CREDITED IF ANY PART OF THIS TRANSCRIPT IS USED On 11th December 2011 Andrew Marr interviewed Shadow Foreign Secretary Douglas Alexander. ANDREW MARR: Well Labour lost no time in branding the outcome of the EU Summit a "disaster" for David Cameron and for the UK, which is left weak and isolated because, according to Ed Miliband, the Prime Minister is "ham-strung" by the divisions in his own party; he's a prisoner of his Eurosceptic backbenchers. So does this mean that Labour would have supported the imposition of cuts demanded by bankers across Europe without voters being given the chance of protesting? I'm joined by the Shadow Foreign Secretary Douglas Alexander. Let's talk, first of all, about the summit itself. It's been branded, as I said, a "disaster" by Labour politicians. But wouldn't a Labour Prime Minister, given what David Cameron was confronted by, have had to do pretty much the same? DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well, firstly, the outcome of the summit itself. I think it's economically inadequate and politically disastrous. I think there was a deal to be done on Thursday evening and I believe a Labour Prime Minister would have secured that better deal. ANDREW MARR: What was the deal? DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well let me explain. We would have had a different approach, we would have had different asks, and we would have achieved a different outcome. I think there was a case for saying how do we give protection to the Single European Act given that we're going to see 17 countries in a tighter fiscal union within the European Union, but there were ways that that could have been achieved. Instead what David Cameron did was actually suggest parts of the Single European Act be revoked without consultation or discussion with any of his natural allies before the summit. And actually I think as the days have passed what emerges is that David Cameron didn't want a deal. The reality is this wasn't about the protection of the single market or of financial services. This was about the politics of the Conservative Party. It was Michael Heseltine who said yesterday on the radio he didn't have the votes in the House of Commons to deliver a deal, and that's a tragedy for Britain. ANDREW MARR: So let me come to what Labour might have done … DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Yuh. ANDREW MARR: … because there are certainly threats being made to the City of London … DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: (over) There are. ANDREW MARR: … which affect the prosperity of this country. And given that the French and the Germans had at some level lost patience with Britain as a non-Euro member telling them what to do, it was always going to be likely that they were going to threaten the city in some way. I put it to you again: a Labour Prime Minister given those kind of threats - Tony Blair in his day, Gordon Brown in his day - would probably have had to if not veto, at least have a very serious confrontation. DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Yes and we wouldn't have signed up to a deal that was bad for Britain, but there were alternatives. I mean the tragedy is David Cameron walked away without a single additional safeguard for the single European market or indeed for the City of London. I would challenge it, ask Nick Clegg, are there any legal protections in place today that weren't in place last week in relation to the city? What could they have done? We could have asked, for example, for a seat at the table. Albeit we don't have a vote in Eurozone negotiations, we should have had a voice because otherwise we're going to see 26 European countries sitting down every month, talking about huge issues related to the Eurozone that will have a profound impact in relation not just to the city but to British exports, to British jobs, to British companies. ANDREW MARR: What sort of issues? DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: What, in terms of what will be talked about within the Eurozone grouping? ANDREW MARR: Yeah. DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well clearly the fiscal union that we are now moving towards within the Eurozone will itself have a very significant impact. My concern in terms of what's been agreed is that there's essentially an austerity pact that's been agreed that could work for Germany, but I struggle to see how it's going to work for Greece, for Portugal, for other countries around Europe. ANDREW MARR: You see this is where we get to the wider politics of it, isn't it, because what's happening inside the Eurozone, which Labour seems to be supportive of by and large, is the imposition of austerity measures on populations in the south, for instance - in Portugal and Greece and Italy and so on - bankers terms, a lot of people would say, imposed from outside by the Germans and others and with no recourse under this new agreement to the electorate. Why would a sort of left wing, liberal leaning party at any stage support this? Isn't it absolutely everything that you're opposed to? DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well, firstly, let's be clear. Those terms are not going to be imposed on Britain. They're being imposed on the 17 members of the Eurozone. Do we agree … ANDREW MARR: (over) So what do you think about that though? DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: … do we agree with the terms? No, let me tell you what we think would be better for Europe. Firstly, you need to address directly the issue of liquidity - putting the firepower behind the European Central Bank. One of the reasons the markets did not respond well to what we saw on Thursday morning was because we haven't actually got the political consent for ECB action. ANDREW MARR: Sorry, but can I just break in there because precisely this is the problem. This is what the French and Germans had decided not to do. This is the plan that they confronted Britain with. And I put it to you again: David Cameron confronted by that plan couldn't accept it, had to walk away, and he's popular in the country for doing that. DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: But that wasn't why David Cameron walked away. And the truth is he's lost his ability to influence those seismic events within the Eurozone because he'll no longer have a seat at the table. That's why we were urging that the British Prime Minister should be saying albeit that we are not within the Eurozone, the impact of what happens in the Eurozone will be felt not just in the city but right across Britain, so let's make sure that we have a seat at the table. David Cameron didn't ask for it because he didn't want a deal. He was keener instead to exploit a situation … ANDREW MARR: (over) Yes. DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: … because of the position of his party. I think the roots of what happened on Thursday lie deep in David Cameron's failure to modernise the Tory Party. He simply couldn't get a deal through the House of Commons. ANDREW MARR: Nonetheless, he's very popular with the Tory Party. DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: (over) That's because he's following the Conservative Party, not leading the Conservative Party. ANDREW MARR: Well he's the hero of the hour as far as they're concerned. And you might say that the whole momentum of politics at the moment is taking us towards a referendum, a bigger choice about whether we're inside the EU or not inside the EU, and that may come quite soon. DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well, listen, I think one of the difficulties for David Cameron is he hasn't sated the appetite of the Eurosceptics on his back benches. He will simply have encouraged them. This may be a question you could ask Nick Clegg in a few minutes time. I don't believe right now the priority for Britain, when we're struggling to see growth in an economy that's flat lining, would be to spend the next few months negotiating and discussing a referendum on the European Union. But there are many in the Conservative back benches who do because for them this is the defining issue for their politics. ANDREW MARR: Can I ask you about two other things since you're here, the riots and huge protests in Moscow and in Russia. Do you think that we are seeing the beginning of something seismic happening in the former Soviet Union, in Russia? DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well what we saw only yesterday in Moscow was extraordinary. I mean protests, riots, the like of which we haven't seen since the 1990s in Russia, and the sense of invincibility that Putin has had for almost twelve years I think is now being called into question. I would stand with Hillary Clinton in her remarks that there are very well founded concerns about why rather than looking like a proud democracy, today Russia looks a bit like a police state. ANDREW MARR: And you're just back from the edge of another police state, Syria - you've just been to the Middle East. DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Yuh. ANDREW MARR: Again we seem to be on the edge of a potential full-scale revolution now in Syria, being put down with horrendous bloodshed. DOUGLAS ALEXANDER: Well we have been very clear as the Labour Party that actually we stand with the government on this one. We think that Assad has run out of time and any legitimacy. Given the horrendous violence we're seeing in Damascus, it is important that the Arab League, Turkey and of course the European Union continues to play our part in putting pressure on the Assad regime. His time is up and it's time that he went. ANDREW MARR: Alright, our time is up as well. Douglas Alexander, thank you very much indeed for joining us. INTERVIEW ENDS
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