Transcript Gen Sir David Richards interview

PLEASE NOTE "THE ANDREW MARR SHOW" MUST BE CREDITED IF ANY PART OF THIS TRANSCRIPT IS USED

ANDREW MARR:

Britain's most recent military venture in Libya is pretty much over, but the much bigger mission in Afghanistan goes on, still costing many British lives. With millions of pounds spent, hundreds of British casualties and thousands of Afghans killed, critics are saying that the past decade of warfare has actually achieved very little; and as the army controversially slashes back its numbers there, there's questions about whether political leaders in Britain will have to constrain their policy ambitions. Well the Head of the Armed Forces, General Sir David Richards, came into the studio a little earlier this morning on his way to the Cenotaph, and I began by asking him for his reflections on that Libyan campaign.

GEN SIR DAVID RICHARDS:

Well I think learning our lessons is a thing that comes to mind. We know that we haven't always got it right in Afghanistan and Iraq. Contrary to popular belief, we've actually put a lot of effort into this and hence there weren't any boots on the ground from Britain or the West. But of course there were boots on the ground from the NTC militias and we work very closely with new allies like Qatar and UAE, Jordan to make sure that we exploited their huge enthusiasm, but early on perhaps they were a bit rusty in their military skills.

ANDREW MARR:

So would it be fair to sum up saying that after burning our fingers in different ways, the new doctrine is very much let's see what other people can do with our help rather than go plunging into conflicts unless we're absolutely sure we have to?

GEN SIR DAVID RICHARDS:

Well there's something in what you're saying. I'm cautious not to give the impression that we would never use boots on the ground,

ANDREW MARR:

No.

GEN SIR DAVID RICHARDS:

If our national interests, vital national interests were threatened, clearly that's an option we've got to keep up our sleeves. But yes, I mean how you are more clever in applying military force that's appropriate to the environment in which we're working is clearly one of those things we've had to learn.

ANDREW MARR:

The big story I suppose of the week in your area has been this memo, which has been read by a lot of our troops in Afghanistan, suggesting that soldiers who have been injured or mutilated are going to be up for dismissal from the army because it is so difficult for yourselves to get the numbers down to what your political masters require.

GEN SIR DAVID RICHARDS:

Well I'd like to kill that. I mean there is no such policy. It hasn't changed from when I was Chief of the General Staff and devised it in cooperation with ministers. So no-one will be forced out of the army. They won't leave until it's right for them. Of course the army is a young man's business, so we all are going to leave it. Most people leave within about ten years. So it's inevitable that they are going to have to leave the army at some point and we've got to focus on being very combat ready and well trained.

ANDREW MARR:

And, presumably, there is a limit to the number of disabled people that the army can employ?

GEN SIR DAVID RICHARDS:

There is undoubtedly a limit, but no-one will be forced out. We've put a lot of effort into this. We've got a thing called the Army Recovery Capability and that's a defence wide capability. There are six centres right round the country whose core task is preparing people for transition into civilian life, and a lot of them have done so successfully. And all the experts say it is better that they bite this bullet early while they're still young rather than linger on beyond a time when it's so easy.

ANDREW MARR:

And to be absolutely clear about it, there are going to have to be more redundancies than were first announced in the review and some of those will not be voluntary?

GEN SIR DAVID RICHARDS:

No, as was the case this time round. But the figures that were leaked in that memo are speculative. I mean the army's got to get down to about 82,000 by 2020 and that'll be quite challenging, but there's no new round of redundancies expected.

ANDREW MARR:

So this memo finally was just … was somebody being over enthusiastic or badly informed, or what?

GEN SIR DAVID RICHARDS:

The army … First of all the business about wounded soldiers. That no-one recognises at all. But the wider issue of the figure, they are working through the various mechanisms to bring the army down to 82,000, so some early work was done and in a fit of enthusiasm this captain sent it out to people in Afghanistan to give them a feel for what was being looked at. But no decisions have been made and we're pretty confident we can get down to the 82,000 figure without a new round of redundancies.

ANDREW MARR:

The two big wars that have been fought in Iraq and Afghanistan have had, to say the least, an ambiguous result. It's been argued that actually down in Basra we were beaten - the British Army failed in Basra; and that in Afghanistan, for other reasons, the West generally is bound to fail. As soon as we pull out, the Taliban are back and everybody knows that, and therefore there's a lot of soul searching about whether it was worth it.

GEN SIR DAVID RICHARDS:

Well, first of all, no-one is certain that the Taliban will come back. Indeed our whole strategy is designed around preventing that from happening. And I'll just remind people that over 80 per cent, every sort of poll that you can legitimise at all demonstrates over 80 per cent of the Afghan people certainly don't want the Taliban back. They went through hell and back in that period and they don't want to see it repeated. Our core purpose is actually much more narrow. It's about our own security. And I think as far as my soldiers - going back to your point about is it worth it - as far as our soldiers are concerned and airmen and naval people that are out there, this is absolutely in the grand tradition of wars that we more … you know we're remembering on a day like this, you know going back to the First, Second World War and many other conflicts. And in fact the soldiers quite spontaneously, if you look at a war memorial that they've established and built in Afghanistan, uses a variation of Kohima saying that for your tomorrow, we gave our today. So there's no question in their minds that this is the right thing to do and no terrorist incident has been mounted from Afghanistan since we went in there in 2001. I think people are a bit short-term in their memories sometimes.

ANDREW MARR:

And these are very brave people and it's very easy sitting in a warm, safe London television studio asking questions like this. I'm very conscious of that. Nonetheless, you know, the Taliban are killing a lot of our people, and the Australians and many others right now, and in Kabul there was another terrible explosion. No sign that for all the treasure and the sacrifice of individuals that we've put in there, that actually we've got them on the run or we've pressed them back in a significant way.

GEN SIR DAVID RICHARDS:

Well I'm not certain we haven't pressed them. If you go back to, if you go and look at Helmand - and I'd very happily take you there - the number of what we call kinetic acts - that's actions that involve fighting - have reduced in one core province, Nad Ali, by 86 per cent …

ANDREW MARR:

Yuh.

GEN SIR DAVID RICHARDS:

… and the overall number by 43 per cent. Don't forget our aim is not to … I mean I wish it was possible, but this is much more than military activity. This is relations and work with Pakistan, governance issues, the peace process that you'll be aware of. But our core aim is not to extinguish the insurgency but to reduce it to the level that the ANSF, the Afghan army and police - this is central to our strategy - can actually take it on. And they're doing remarkably well and I think give or take, and we will be veering and hauling, we are on track to deliver that strategy.

ANDREW MARR:

And although the headline is that we are pulling out of Afghanistan over the next couple of years, is it correct that there may be up to 2,000 British soldiers staying there long-term, possibly for decades, to help with the training and support the Afghan Army?

GEN SIR DAVID RICHARDS:

I think it's important that we're not seen to be pulling out. It's most important for the Afghan people and those other countries in the region they're clear that the West is not doing that, and I know that is central to President Obama's deliberations, as it is to Prime Minister Cameron's. It's the nature of that residual support. I mean I don't recognise the 2,000 figure. To be honest, we haven't yet decided what the residual figure will be, but I think we're looking in the hundreds rather than the thousands.

ANDREW MARR:

The Ministry of Defence has come under a bit of a kicking recently for being top heavy. You've probably seen some of the reports of this. For instance, we have more generals than operational tanks now. Are you really satisfied that the cuts, which are painful across the armed services, that the top of the tree is taking its fair share?

GEN SIR DAVID RICHARDS:

We are under the Lord Levine reforms, we are pretty brutally actually having a go at the top hamper, and the number of four star generals is being cut in half, for example. So I think you know I can reassure you that we are - us generals, we always get the thin end of this …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) Yeah, you do.

GEN SIR DAVID RICHARDS:

… and it's always generals for some reason. We're very cognisant of that criticism and making sure that we do our bit to …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) So maybe fewer generals in the future?

GEN SIR DAVID RICHARDS:

Oh definitely fewer generals.

ANDREW MARR:

Are you happy that you have got the kit that it takes to cover all the responsibilities that the armed forces have got? We've got the Duke of Cambridge, Prince William, going over to the Falklands shortly. The Argentines are not very happy about that, but clearly we have to think about the Falklands. And then at the other end of the world, we've got Iran becoming more and more dangerous. Are we not simply too small now to be covering all the things that we have to do?

GEN SIR DAVID RICHARDS:

Well, first of all, we're not doing these by ourselves. I mentioned the new allies like UAE and Qatar - very, very important regional allies that we're establishing a very strong relationship with - and I'm sure that will grow. And you know the British military brand is a hugely strong one. Every country I go to, nations want a bit of us …

ANDREW MARR:

Yuh.

GEN SIR DAVID RICHARDS:

… so we've got to create enough head room to make sure we can do the right thing by all those countries too. But the answer to your question is that this went through and was at the core of the SDSR deliberations and I can reassure everyone that the core military task that I'm set by the government, we can still meet. Now I wouldn't want to pretend that my core business is managing risk (Marr speaks over/not audible) and you know I have a few more challenges, but we can do everything that's asked of us.

ANDREW MARR:

And you don't have to say therefore to ministers listen, if you're going to make all these cuts, you have to cut your political ambitions for the military as well?

GEN SIR DAVID RICHARDS:

Well it's a debate we have. And I think you know it's rather like the Americans. They had this two war concept, that they could fight two wars at the same time. It then became one and a half wars. We are going to have to go through that process, but there are ways of navigating through and round these issues - most importantly with allies. But you know we're still the fourth largest defence expenditure in this country and it's important that we realise other nations relatively are also reducing their expenditure. Everyone is in the same boat at the moment. The most important fiscal … I mean the most important strategic risk facing this country is clearly our economic situation.

ANDREW MARR:

Sure.

GEN SIR DAVID RICHARDS:

We all know in the armed forces we've got to play a role in helping to resolve that. But as I look forward to 2020, you know we'll have some first class equipment and I'm confident - the most important thing - we'll also still have first class people, because equipment without people actually isn't worth having.

ANDREW MARR:

Absolutely. And you're on your way to the Cenotaph. We read that more poppies have been sold this year than ever before. You certainly go out into the street and I think more people are wearing them than any year I can remember. Why do you think that is?

GEN SIR DAVID RICHARDS:

I don't know. I'm asked that a lot. I mean … And of course it's very humbling for us because we go about our daily business without thinking about these bigger issues, and if you go and talk to soldiers in Helmand it's really all about working closely with their muckers and looking after each other. So elevating it to something that's very visceral really is quite a challenge for us. But I think programmes on television and media and so on have brought home to people that you know this is a group of wonderful (I would say but I think many people would share that view) wonderful people who are dedicated to doing things for others. And I know there's lots of criticism of the political rationale behind some of the things we're asked to do. That doesn't really worry us.

ANDREW MARR:

And are you concerned about morale? I mean it's been a tough time for all the armed services, and I think your own polling shows that morale is pretty low in parts of the armed services as people absorb the bad news.

GEN SIR DAVID RICHARDS:

Yes. Well actually again, the closer you are to the action, the less concerned I am and morale seems remarkably high in places like Afghanistan and visiting those that were so brilliant I think in the Royal Air Force and the Navy over Libya. I mean I can't tell you how high morale is. But the further you get away from the frontline, the more fragile it is. But, nevertheless, you know we're all very committed to what we're doing. We also understand the part we have to play in this bigger solution. So it's a factor in our lives, but not something that keeps me awake at night, and we're working very hard to make sure people are properly rewarded.

ANDREW MARR:

General, thank you very much indeed for coming in to speak to us this morning.

GEN SIR DAVID RICHARDS:

Thank you very much, Andrew.

INTERVIEW ENDS

E-mail this to a friend

Printable version