Transcript Douglas Alexander interview

PLEASE NOTE "THE ANDREW MARR SHOW" MUST BE CREDITED IF ANY PART OF THIS TRANSCRIPT IS USED

JEREMY VINE:

And listening to what Mr Barak had to say was Douglas Alexander, the Shadow Foreign Secretary. Welcome to you.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Good morning.

JEREMY VINE:

And it's quite possible that actually they do strike Iran, isn't it, and just take out their nuclear facility?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Well I hope that that does not come to pass because we all have a collective interest in Iran recognising its responsibilities under international law and desisting from developing a nuclear capability. But the threat is real and it's a very serious situation, which is why I want to see renewed effort on the twin track approach that's being taken by the international community: on one hand strengthening the sanction's regime (and I would pay tribute to the work that Cathy Ashton has done in the European Union on that issue); but, on the other hand, engaging with Tehran to help them understand that there's no future for Iran being an international pariah.

JEREMY VINE:

Isn't it fair to say that hasn't worked; and in the time that it hasn't worked, the sanctions of diplomacy route - which Mr Barak talked about as well - they've been getting closer to having a bomb; and once they get one, you don't have that option anymore?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Well I recognise that represents a very serious threat not just to Israel and to Iran's neighbours, but to the region and indeed to the world. But let's also have a broader context on this. There has been one big loser and one big winner in the Arab world out of the Arab Spring that we've seen in the last six months or so, and I would argue that the two countries who are competing for leadership of the Arab world - ironically neither of them are Arab: you've got Turkey on one hand and Iran on the other. And in that sense Turkey has been prevailing and Iran has been losing. The 1979 Revolution is increasingly seen on the Arab street not as being the way forward, but as a diversion and a side step from the huge changes that we're seeing now.

JEREMY VINE:

(over) Sure, but why …

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

(over) So the Iranian regime is under pressure. That's why it's important that the world speaks with one voice and sends a clear signal.

JEREMY VINE:

But why in that context would you like Israel to rule out bombing Iran? Why should they do that for you?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Well, listen, I think we are a long way from military action at this stage because I think it's important that we choose our words carefully and send a very clear and unequivocal signal not just to the Iranian government, but to Ahmadinejad in particular. Let's remember this is a man who's denied the existence of the Holocaust; only a few days ago in New York was pedalling conspiracy theories about 9/11. We need, therefore, to send a clear and unequivocal signal that we do not accept the legitimacy of Iran developing nuclear weapons.

JEREMY VINE:

And leave bombing on the table?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Well we are a long way from that. Let us make sure that we focus …

JEREMY VINE:

(over) But you just criticised Mr Barak for doing exactly that.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

(over) No, what I've said …

JEREMY VINE:

(over) I think you're doing it yourself, aren't you?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

If I recollect, his final answer said that actually you needn't worry in terms of the days to come. I want to make sure there is a clear diplomatic focus in the days, weeks and months ahead.

JEREMY VINE:

Okay, now why are you calling the Cannes Summit, the G20 Summit, the "do nothing summit" when there's been so much going on?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Because regrettably it's the second international summit in as many weeks that has broken up without consensus, without agreement, and without the action that the global economy needs. We are minutes from midnight in terms of the condition of the European, indeed the global economy, and that's why there was a heavy responsibility on those leaders in Cannes not simply to talk but to act. And, alas, we didn't see the action that I think would have helped protect British jobs, British exports and British prosperity in the future.

JEREMY VINE:

Looking at the news bulletins and what was reported there, it seemed like there was quite a lot going on. You had Cameron and Merkel and Sarkozy and Obama muscling up to the Greek Prime Minister. He called off his referendum. That's a start for you, isn't it?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Activity is not the same as action. Let's be clear, Greece represents about 2 per cent of European output. We have a huge vested interest as the United Kingdom not simply in what happens in Greece and the Eurozone, but critically what's going to happen in Italy and Spain potentially unless that action is taken. And I don't think even the staunchest defenders of the G20 process - and I support that process - would regard the Cannes Summit as a success. It's the second failure in as many weeks.

JEREMY VINE:

It's not a bit cheap to be attacking the Prime Minister from this country when he's at an international summit?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Well, listen, I think the responsibility on the Prime Minister is to exercise influence for the United Kingdom. And I think it's understandable when European leaders are perplexed, when the Prime Minister as recently as March was telling Chancellor Merkel that he didn't want to be in the meetings about the Eurozone because he didn't want Britain to be making a contribution, and then just two weeks ago was knocking on the door and insisting that Britain be present. It was George Osborne, the British Chancellor of the Exchequer, who in July said there was an inexorable logic towards a single fiscal area as well as a single currency, but my genuine fear is that the government's been asleep at the switch since then when they should have recognised that if that was to be the outcome, an effective two speed Europe, that does represent a very real threat to British interests and to British jobs.

JEREMY VINE:

Okay, well tell us what you would have done. If it had been a Labour Prime Minister, if Ed Miliband had been there, what would he do?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Well a difference both in approach and in what we would actually be advocating. Firstly the approach. I travelled with Gordon Brown ahead of the G20 Summit in 2008 to South America. He literally toured the world trying to build consensus for what then became the agreement that got us through that phase of the crisis, and I think there are genuine differences in terms of the level of engagement we've seen from George Osborne and David Cameron in recent months. But what should they have been saying? We need a balanced approach that recognises the importance of dealing with the deficit, but also of dealing with growth. One of the reasons Greece is in the crisis afflicting it at the moment is the absence of growth, and in that sense I didn't hear the British Prime Minister talking about the centrality of growth to deficit reduction, as he hasn't done here in Britain, also internationally.

JEREMY VINE:

(over) But that's very long-term thinking, isn't it? I mean this is a crisis that's happening now. The fire is now.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Yeah.

JEREMY VINE:

You may have a situation where Greece actually falls out of the Eurozone. What then?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Well for the first time that was speculated upon at the summit. We've got a huge interest in making sure that the Eurozone manages to find a way forward. I worry, I have to say, about the approach that's being taken on the Conservative benches. Schadenfreude is not a strategy even in European politics or economics. We've got a huge interest in the European Central Bank recognising its responsibility …

JEREMY VINE:

(over) You think they've been asleep at the wheel?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

I think that it's been disappointing. There hasn't been the political support for the ECB that's necessary.

JEREMY VINE:

Do you want the IMF to take over that?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Well I don't see there as being a contradiction between the ECB recognising its responsibilities and the IMF recognising its responsibilities. The ECB is the lender of last resort for its own currency area, the way the Bank of England is for sterling, the way the Federal Reserve is for the United States dollar. So the ECB does need to be delivering more firepower at the moment. David Cameron himself talked about a "big bazooka" from Europe, but we haven't seen that action in recent weeks. But that shouldn't be at the cost of the IMF being willing to act if necessary in the future.

JEREMY VINE:

Right, so you don't mind in principle British money going into the IMF and the IMF then putting the money the way of Greece or shoring up the PIGS as they're called?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

We have always supported the IMF as the United Kingdom. The question is what is that money used for? We don't want, as the Labour Party, to see a situation where the IMF's recapitalisation becomes a pretext or an excuse for the ECB not recognising its responsibilities. Both institutions have responsibilities, the IMF and the ECB, and both may be required.

JEREMY VINE:

Okay, change of subject again to the strikes on 30th November. Public sector pensions the key theme …

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Yup.

JEREMY VINE:

… and teachers and local government and everything else. You really think that the people who are drawing these public sector pensions and are angry about the changes deserve more than they're getting? Is that right?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Well I think there needs to be further negotiations. None of us want to see a strike …

JEREMY VINE:

(over) There have been and there's been government compromise.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Well it's maybe something you can ask the Chief Secretary in a few minutes time. What we've heard from the government for many months is this was a final offer; nothing more was going to change. What we've now seen is a welcome step forward. I think there needs to be compromise by both sides. The public sector trade unions need to recognise that we are all going to have to work longer and contribute more in the future. On the other hand, I think there are some very specific details that continue to need to be looked at. Look, for example, at the position of a part-time nurse earning about £15,000 or £16,000. The 3 per cent increase in contributions still being demanded by the government means that she would lose about £900 a year. The changes that they've proposed, as we understand it, will impact on the poorest people in the public sector, many of them women, much more impactfully than on other people in the public sector.

JEREMY VINE:

(over) Okay, so be to clear, you don't think the strike should go ahead?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

We want the negotiations to be taken forward.

JEREMY VINE:

You don't?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

We think there needs to be further compromise on both sides. And let's hope that if there is serious negotiations in the weeks ahead, we can avoid a strike.

JEREMY VINE:

Your colleague John Hutton says it's hard to imagine a better deal than this. He's wrong, is he?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Well let's see what the negotiations yield.

JEREMY VINE:

Alright. One more for you and this is slightly personal for you. The whole business at St. Paul's Cathedral, which we were talking about in the papers review with Joan and Margot. They shut the doors. And your father was a pastor.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Yes.

JEREMY VINE:

Grandfather as well. Did you feel a sense of unease when that happened?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Yes, I did actually. I mean I think the job of the church is not simply to comfort the afflicted, but to afflict the comfortable. Its calling through the ages has been to be a prophetic voice on issues of public morality. And I think, as Ed Miliband reflected in his article in the Observer today, what the protestors are doing in a very distinctive way, which many of us wouldn't ourselves engage in, is speak to a much deeper unease in society about the rules by which society is being run. Righteousness, the literal translation is right relationships, and I think most people feel that the relationship between the very top of society and the rest of us is pretty broken at the moment and needs to be healed.

JEREMY VINE:

So those protestors are in some way an iteration of your party at the moment?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

I think those protestors often have inchoate demands, a range of different interests. But I think the much more significant point is they're speaking to a general unease, indeed a general anger that I sense in my own constituency, I sense in communities right across the country. And in that sense, it's something of a distraction to talk about the people in the tents or the protestors. I think the issues that they speak to are actually much more profound and are much more widely held.

JEREMY VINE:

Okay, thank you very much indeed Douglas Alexander.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Thank you.

JEREMY VINE:

Shadow Foreign Secretary.

INTERVIEW ENDS

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