Transcript Ehud Barak interview

PLEASE NOTE "THE ANDREW MARR SHOW" MUST BE CREDITED IF ANY PART OF THIS TRANSCRIPT IS USED

JEREMY VINE:

Now by any standards Ehud Barak has had an astonishing career serving his country. Israel's Prime Minister during the Camp David negotiations with Yasser Arafat now serves as both Deputy Prime Minister and Defence Minister in the current government. Before entering politics, he was one of the country's most decorated soldiers carrying out the kind of military ops that are now the stuff of legend among many Israelis. So a man of peace or a man of war? When I met him in London recently, I began by asking why his government has authorised the building of more settlements despite international criticism.

EHUD BARAK:

We are building in Jerusalem. It's our capital. We are building in the Jewish neighbourhoods of Jerusalem. It's a city of 700,000 people. You have to build and we will not accept anyone has the right to intervene in this. And we …

JEREMY VINE:

(over) Well that is seen as speeding up, isn't it? That's seen as acceleration.

EHUD BARAK:

(over) No, it's not. No speeding up … It's about numbers and pace, numbers per unit time. When Olmert was Prime Minister five years ago, we were building our defence minister twice the rate we are building now. When I was Prime Minister ten years ago, we were building four times the rate we are building right now. So it's not about the pace.

JEREMY VINE:

But why not … Again it's about the symbolism. Why not just stop for a while because the other side see this as getting in the way, don't they?

EHUD BARAK:

No, no, the other side plays with it as a kind of manipulation to put certain preconditions into the dialogue. The reason that Olmert's government and my government could do it is because somehow we managed to convince the rest of the world that we are genuine in our talks and now we are facing more sophisticated Palestinian group which feels the zeitgeist behind them. They feel that they have good will from many international bodies, so they try to play with this issue of settlement. It really shouldn't matter because …

JEREMY VINE:

Well you said something very, very interesting there - the phrases you've used - where you say you're dealing with a sophisticated Palestinian leadership now and they're very zeitgeisty and I couldn't have put it better myself in these questions. They're getting world opinion behind them, aren't they?

EHUD BARAK:

Yuh, yuh. We have to work properly to allow our people, our kind of spokesmen to talk more often to others, but it won't solve the issue. It cannot …

JEREMY VINE:

(over) Are you frustrated at that?

EHUD BARAK:

I am a little bit frustrated by the fact that we cannot convince even some of our friends.

JEREMY VINE:

Okay, just to be clear. You accept that it strengthens Hamas if you go on building these settlements or not?

EHUD BARAK:

I don't think it relates to Hamas. Hamas basically is challenging Abu Mazen and the Palestinian authority. They are turning to terror. We cannot negotiate with them. Hamas are shooting at us rockets. You know just last week we got dozens of rockets in our southern part of the country. One man, father of four, was killed. That's something that cannot go together with peacemaking.

JEREMY VINE:

Let me change the subject.

EHUD BARAK:

(over) So it will be a challenge for Abu Mazen to take control over his own political system.

JEREMY VINE:

Alright, alright, I want to just move on because we haven't got much time. I want to talk to you about Iran as well. And I gather if we had the Israeli newspapers here and we opened them up, we would see that everyone in Israel is now thinking that you're getting ready to attack Iran. Is that right? Is that what people are saying?

EHUD BARAK:

Believe me, don't … I do not try to underestimate the nature of the Iranian threat. That's a major threat for the stability of the whole region, probably of the whole world. A nuclear Iran - and they are determined to reach nuclear military capability - can open a major arms race, nuclear arms race in the whole Middle East. It can change the effectiveness of their supporting and their co-sponsoring of terror all around the region. They can …

JEREMY VINE:

(over) Which is why the Israeli papers are saying aha, you're about to strike on them.

EHUD BARAK:

No, but I am telling it for years now. And they will intimidate neighbours in a much more effective way, especially when America and others are moving out of the region. I hope that the IAEA Report next week will tell the whole world a little bit more explicitly what they are really doing in regard to their nuclear plan.

JEREMY VINE:

(over) This is the narrative that's coming together. It's the missile test. It's the long range bombing plan. It's the IAEA Report which you mentioned. So they may say that Iran is getting closer to a bomb.

EHUD BARAK:

We strongly believe that sanctions are effective or could be effective if they are little and paralysing enough, that diplomacy could work if enough unity could be synchronised between the major players, but that no option should be removed from the table.

JEREMY VINE:

You have an amazing military record, and for those who don't know it, 19... - correct me if I'm wrong here - 1972 led the mission to free hostages on a Sabena flight; 1973, I read somewhere you dressed as a woman to assassinate - you're nodding - members of the PLO.

EHUD BARAK:

(over) Not as a hobby, yuh.

JEREMY VINE:

Okay. A scene in the film Munich reflected that. You were involved in Operation Entebbe in 1976; helped dismantle the Palestinian terror cell known as Black September. I'm thinking you're not really into diplomacy here. You would like to attack Iran.

EHUD BARAK:

No, I was also Foreign Affairs Minister of Israel and Prime Minister. In the last 15 years I didn't shot a single shot at anyone and I played a lot round the diplomatic saloons and the TV interviews as well. You know it's too serious. Israel is there. A person cannot choose his parents and a nation cannot choose its neighbours. We are living in a tough neighbourhood. No mercy for the weak, no second opportunity for those who cannot defend themselves. We would love to have the Canadians as our neighbours, but unfortunately the Americans got them. It's a tough neighbourhood and we have to be strong.

JEREMY VINE:

(over) One more because if you suddenly attack Iran next week, I want to make sure we've asked every question here. Have you got British support for that - for flying over them and dropping a bomb on their nuclear reactors?

EHUD BARAK:

I'm not going even to respond to this. May I say we are not … don't worry about your next week programme, but the Iranian challenge is serious. This is something that should be prevented from happening. We have to stay there. We are strong. Israel is the strongest country a thousand miles around Jerusalem. We plan to remain the strongest country around. But we are at the same time peaceful. We are ready to make peace at any moment with any one of our neighbours.

JEREMY VINE:

So pretty cautious. Ehud Barak there, Israel's Defence Minister. No options ruled out on Iran.

INTERVIEW ENDS

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