PLEASE NOTE "THE ANDREW MARR SHOW" MUST BE CREDITED IF ANY PART OF THIS TRANSCRIPT IS USED THE ANDREW MARR SHOW INTERVIEW: DAVID CAMERON PRIME MINISTER OCTOBER 30th 2011 ANDREW MARR: Now then it's probably fair to say that the Queen was the absolute star of the show at CHOGM. And of course she had a family interest in one of the decisions taken at the beginning of the week: namely to allow a future first-born daughter to accede to the throne, ending the old tradition that the eldest boy is deemed to be the heir. That was one of the issues I raised earlier with the Prime Minister David Cameron. Where, I asked him, had that idea come from? DAVID CAMERON: This has been an idea that's been around for a while. Previous prime ministers have talked about it and promoted it; Parliament's talked about it; the Royal Family's talked about it. I think it's been known that we ought really to do something about this, and this was a great opportunity. You've got the heads of the sixteen countries where the Queen is Head of State all here together at the Commonwealth Heads of Government, so it was a great opportunity to write to them in advance, to try and set the issue up, and we had a very successful meeting and they all agreed to go ahead. So there's still some work to be done, but in principle it's agreed now that if the first born of Prince William and Kate is a girl, that girl will be our Queen. ANDREW MARR: Fascinating, and a lot of attention on that. But the other side of it, the Roman Catholic change. Isn't that another unpicking of the role of the Church of England as the established church? It's a gentle move, but we're quite clearly moving to a new position of the Church of England? DAVID CAMERON: No I don't think it is because what we're saying here is that someone who's going to inherit the throne could marry a Roman Catholic, just as they could currently marry a Hindu or a Sikh or a Jew or a Muslim or someone of no faith at all. What we're not changing … ANDREW MARR: (over) But they couldn't be a Roman Catholic? DAVID CAMERON: Yes, we're not … The person who is on the throne has to be a member of the Church of England because they are the head of the established church, so that isn't changing. But I think the outright discrimination of saying that someone couldn't marry a Roman Catholic, that is gone. So we chose the two things we wanted to do on the basis that they were the most important, the ones that could be agreed by the sixteen, and we can carry forward in law. ANDREW MARR: The other great cause of this summit for the Commonwealth was going to be an Independent Commissioner on Human Rights, and it seems that the Commonwealth has looked in the mirror and thought shall we be toothless or shall we have teeth? Let's be toothless. DAVID CAMERON: I think that's unfair. I mean if you look at the Eminent Persons Group Report - and it's a good report - there are really two key recommendations. One is to have a clear charter for the Commonwealth - to set out that we believe in democracy and rights and freedom. That's the sort of voluntary organisation with values that we are. That has been accepted. The recommendation about having a Commissioner for Human Rights has not been rejected. It's just being asked can we look at exactly how this role will be filled, the relation it has to the Secretariat of the Commonwealth. So it hasn't been put off entirely. ANDREW MARR: But that's a disappointment, isn't it? I mean we hear that Sri Lanka, India were against it, which is why it hasn't happened; but, nonetheless, that would have given a clear signal that the Commonwealth was serious about these issues. DAVID CAMERON: I think the charter gives a clear signal that the Commonwealth is serious. I mean Britain is always in the maximalist position with others, with other like-minded countries. We always want the Commonwealth to be the best, to do the most, to have the clearest set of values. But I think this is a step forward. You have to remember with the Commonwealth, it's an association of 54 states, a third of the world's population, countries from six different continents. It is a voluntary body that has to proceed by consensus, but it is a good organisation for that. It's an organisation based on values, and the values have just got clearer and stronger and I think that's important. ANDREW MARR: To take one clear example of this, I think there's something like 36 members of the Commonwealth, a large number who discriminate, quite savagely in some cases, against homosexuals. I think Uganda, you can get a 10 year prison sentence for being a homosexual. This is something that a lot of people look to this summit to really take a hard line on, and it hasn't happened. DAVID CAMERON: Well this is something we raise continually, and the fact is you know different Commonwealth countries are at different positions on this issue and we want them to move. We're not just talking about it. We're also saying that British aid should have more strings attached in terms of do you persecute people for their faith or their Christianity, or do you persecute people for their sexuality? We don't think that's acceptable. ANDREW MARR: The Australian newspapers reported that in the general sessions on this only Canada and Australia raised the issue; that Britain didn't. DAVID CAMERON: No, we've been raising the issue consistently. We've been raising it here at this Commonwealth Heads of Government. ANDREW MARR: (over) You're doing this bilaterally, one to one with leaders? DAVID CAMERON: (over) Absolutely and I've got further sessions to have and will be raising it too. You know and we've raised it with a lot of people. And also we've made this statement about our aid policy, which is significant. ANDREW MARR: So which countries have you raised it with, can I ask? DAVID CAMERON: I've been raising it with a number of the African countries that I've been speaking with. ANDREW MARR: Uganda and Kenya and places like …? DAVID CAMERON: I mean I can't give you all the names, but I have been. And also we've raised it, you know we raised it … The Foreign Secretary has been raising it too because he's been deputising for me at this meeting. But, as I say, even more than raising it, actually saying very clearly that remember Britain is now one of the premier aid givers in the world - saying that our aid, actually we want to see countries that receive our aid adhering to proper human rights, and that includes how people treat gay and lesbian people. ANDREW MARR: So to be absolutely clear, you are saying to these African countries if you don't change your law on homosexuality, we will give you less aid? DAVID CAMERON: We are saying it is one of the things that will determine our aid policy. And there have been particularly bad examples where you know we have taken action, and I think people can expect to see … ANDREW MARR: (over) What sort of reaction do you get from them? DAVID CAMERON: Well you know they are in a different place to us on this issue, and that is … ANDREW MARR: They just think this is some sort of bizarre Western fetish, or …? DAVID CAMERON: I think if you go back in our own country's history, there was a time when we, you know till quite recently, discriminated in lots of ways. I think these countries are all on a journey and it's up to us to try and help them along that journey, and that's exactly what we do. ANDREW MARR: Before we move onto non-Commonwealth matters, the next meeting like this is supposed to be taking place in Sri Lanka. If there has not been significant improvement in their record on human rights, will you be comfortable going? The Canadians will boycott it. DAVID CAMERON: Well I've been discussing this with the Canadians and I think we all have a similar view, which is we want to see Sri Lanka do more in terms of human rights; we want them to do more in terms of reconciliation after the defeat of the Tamil Tigers. I've had that conversation myself with President Rajapaksa who's here. And I think that you know they should be aware of the fact that they're holding this Commonwealth Summit in 2013 and it's up to them to show further progress, so they can welcome the maximum number of countries when they do. ANDREW MARR: But if they don't, will you go? DAVID CAMERON: Well I don't want to get into the if's. ANDREW MARR: Alright. DAVID CAMERON: We've using this moment. The message I've given is, look, the Tamil Tigers have been defeated. You're in government. You have an opportunity now to show magnanimity and also to show a process of reconciliation and to demonstrate to the rest of the world that you don't have things to hide. I think that's very important that pressure is applied, and it is being, including at this Commonwealth conference. ANDREW MARR: This is you know a chance for you to speak to lots of leaders that you don't often meet and you've been speaking, I think, to some from the Horn of Africa about the very, very persistent difficult issue of piracy and ships and indeed individuals being taken by pirates from Somalia. DAVID CAMERON: Well that's right. It's one of the great things about the Commonwealth - is it brings together such a disparate group of nations - but sometimes we share very common interests although we're on the other side of the world. So I've been having conversations with, for instance, the Seychelles and with Mauritius who actually imprison pirates, and we need to help them do that so they're not set free in the ludicrous way they too often are now. Also with the Kenyans. ANDREW MARR: (over) So what more can we do? DAVID CAMERON: Well what we're going to do - and this is very important - is we are now going to say to British flag ships that they will be licensed, if they want to, to have security guards, armed guards on those ships. The evidence is that ships with armed guards don't get attacked, don't get taken for hostage or for ransom, and so we think this is a very important step forward. (Marr tries to interject) We're going to have to licence that in a proper way - the Home Office has agreed to do that - and I think this is a big step-up for our campaign against this piracy. It is only one in a number of steps we need to take. ANDREW MARR: Sure, but it's quite a dramatic one because it means in effect that you will be licensing non-military civilian Britons to shoot to kill - if necessary - because otherwise there's no point in having them there. DAVID CAMERON: Well we have to make choices in this, and frankly the extent of the hijack and ransom of ships round the Horn of Africa I think is a complete stain on our world. The fact that a bunch of pirates in Somalia are managing to hold to ransom the rest of the world and our trading system, I think is a complete insult, and so the rest of the world needs to come together with much more vigour. And I want to help lead this process, and as part of that we are going to take this step of putting armed guards on our ships so that they don't get attacked. I think it's an important step forward. It's only one step forward. I want to make sure more of these pirates actually face justice, and that is why we're working with other countries. And I want us to have a far greater focus on this broken country, Somalia, and how we can try and deal with the causes of the hijack, the piracy, the ransom, the kidnappings and all the other problems you see flowing out of that broken country. ANDREW MARR: And do you think there's any way of getting these people tried and imprisoned because at the moment they're just let loose, including by our own Navy? There is no way of trying them. DAVID CAMERON: Well one … two of the countries are actually trying them and imprisoning them right now. Two actually not very wealthy countries but who are represented here and I've been discussing: the Seychelles and Mauritius. There may be other steps that we can take. There are a range of options to make sure more of these people face justice. But in the short-term, one of the fastest things we can do is armed guards on these ships to make sure they don't get attacked. I think it would be effective. ANDREW MARR: Let me turn to the economy at home. One of the biggest sort of rising bubbles of anger that is starting to come through are among older people and pensioners who feel that they are being dealt with very savagely by the renewed inflation being pumped into the economy and that nobody is really taking much notice of that. DAVID CAMERON: Well I feel every sympathy for people who are facing tight household budgets and they actually see an increase in the price of petrol, increase in the price of food. And for many people, they've had a pay freeze this year, and so that does affect their household income. ANDREW MARR: The Bank of England, which was supposed to be keeping inflation to 2 per cent, cheerfully, openly, happily seeing it at 5 per cent or 6 per cent. DAVID CAMERON: Well they're not happy about it, and every time inflation … ANDREW MARR: (over) Well they're not doing much about it. DAVID CAMERON: (over) … is above 2 per cent, they have to write a letter to the Chancellor and explain why. It's the Bank of England's job to control inflation. Now the Bank of England believe that what we're seeing is the temporary rise in the price level that has come through particularly from lower sterling, from the price of imports, from high food prices in the rest of the world. They believe that is a temporary phenomenon. That is their judgement. What … ANDREW MARR: (over) You don't think they're looking over their shoulder and saying actually David Cameron is more worried about growth and unemployment and young people, so we're going to give them a bit of inflation? DAVID CAMERON: (over) The reason for their independence is to stop that sort of thinking. They have got to do the mandate, the job, and I think it's very important they feel that they can do that. ANDREW MARR: Will we be hearing more from you on this subject? DAVID CAMERON: Well every time we've had the chance, we've frozen the council tax. We've just announced another freeze in the council tax. We've announced a cut in petrol duty. That's not something people expected the government to do, but I'm acutely conscious that families up and down the country face tough budgets and they want a government that's on their side, and that's exactly what this government will be. ANDREW MARR: After the last very, very late night summit in Brussels and the new agreement, evermore clearly we see a two-stage Europe or two-speed Europe. We see a deeper Eurozone Europe of the 17 countries and the other countries, including Britain of course, outside that. Is this not the perfect time to really rethink our relationship with that inner core and not to be frightened of having a referendum and not to be frightened of putting hard questions in front of the British people? DAVID CAMERON: Well I think we have to take this in stages, and at every stage the key thing for me is what is the national interest? Now the reason I was so insistent on that vote in the House of Commons about having a proper whip is I don't think this is the right time to have a big in/out referendum and leave Europe. We need a growing economy, we need that European market open. We need to be setting the rules of that market. ANDREW MARR: (over) Let me stop you on that. DAVID CAMERON: Right. ANDREW MARR: Even if there are treaty changes as a result of what's been agreed? DAVID CAMERON: Well let's take it in stages. So stage one is focus on growth, don't have an in/out referendum. But let's use this moment, yes. As the Eurozone countries go ahead (as they must) trying to coordinate and combine more, I think it's right that those countries not in the Euro ask for some arrangements and guarantees that the single market's going to be properly protected. There is a concern that because the 17 are going off and doing more together, that could impact badly on the single market. I want to stop that from happening. So again … ANDREW MARR: (over) Which means that you have to ally with the Commission. The old enemy is now a friend because they're the only people who can stop that happening. DAVID CAMERON: Well the Commission has a useful purpose in the European Union, which is, as you say, to protect the single market. And we should always work with the Commission to try and make Europe help drive growth. ANDREW MARR: Let me challenge you a little bit on the repatriation of powers. You said yesterday that the Whitehall officials were working really hard on how we were going to repatriate powers, which powers we're going to repatriate. Really? DAVID CAMERON: Yes … ANDREW MARR: Really, really? DAVID CAMERON: Well what's happening here is there is a coalition agreement to look at the balance of powers between Britain and Brussels … ANDREW MARR: Yuh. DAVID CAMERON: … and Whitehall civil servants are doing that exercise to look at the balance of powers. But let me be frank with you. You know we are in a coalition, and the way I put it in the House of Commons is absolutely right. I think the Liberal Democrats are in favour of some rebalancing. The Conservative Party, the party I lead, is in favour of a lot of rebalancing and would like to achieve that. The difference is … ANDREW MARR: (over) Eighty-eight per cent of … DAVID CAMERON: (over) … across the House of Commons, the Labour Party is not in favour of any rebalancing at all. They don't think Europe has too much power. I do think it is has too much power. ANDREW MARR: You do think that, but it sounds to me as if you also think there's no way that you're going to be able to do anything about that during this parliament … DAVID CAMERON: (over) I don't … ANDREW MARR: (over) … and that's the message you're really sending to your back benchers. DAVID CAMERON: (over) No, I don't accept that because I've made the point already about as the Eurozone deepens, so the single market must be protected. That means change. Another change that I believe is likely to occur is that the Germans and others are going to be looking for treaty change for the Eurozone. If they do that, there may well be opportunities for Britain to further our national interest in some way and we would examine that as a coalition government. But people should understand that I think as Europe develops and as the Eurozone develops, there will be in time greater opportunities for greater rebalancing and for Britain to reach I think a more satisfactory position with regards to our relationship with Europe. I would like to see further rebalancing, but we are obviously going to have to act as a coalition. ANDREW MARR: So one last time, it doesn't seem as if we're likely, candidly, to get something back from Brussels during the lifetime of this particular government? DAVID CAMERON: I don't accept that. Look, we've already got something back from Brussels. We got the bailout powers, right, because Labour signed up to a bailout scheme that put British taxpayers' money at risk. I've got the European Treaty amended, so that we're not in that bailout scheme anymore from 2013. ANDREW MARR: Right. DAVID CAMERON: So I've got a power back already, if you like. Now what we don't know is whether a German proposal for treaty change will bear fruit, whether it will get through. We don't know how big that treaty change will be, how extensive it might be, so we don't quite know what our opportunities will be. But I'm very clear just as I got the bailout power because that was good for Britain, in our national interest, I'm looking for other ways to further our national interest in Europe. ANDREW MARR: So you're not going soft. Prime Minister, thank you very much indeed for joining us. DAVID CAMERON: Pleasure. INTERVIEW ENDS
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