Transcript Philip Hammond interview

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THE ANDREW MARR SHOW

INTERVIEW:

PAUL KAGAME

PRESIDENT OF RWANDA

OCTOBER 30th 2011

ANDREW MARR:

The Rwandan genocide of the 1990s was one of the darkest periods in Africa's modern history. More than 800,000 people were slaughtered, many of them killed with simple machetes, in terrible violence between the majority Hutu population and their initial target, the Tutsis. Eventually the forces of Paul Kagame's Rwandan popular Patriotic Front brought the war to an end: the Tutsi and former soldier, who was trained by both the Cubans and the Americans. He became President and introduced very successful economic reforms. But his human rights record is heavily criticised and his presence here at CHOGM sparked protest. Rwanda is the newest member of the Commonwealth and has no British colonial history. French, Belgian, even German, but not British. So when I talked to President Kagame, I started by asking him why join?

PAUL KAGAME:

It's very attractive in various ways. One, the kind of global network it brings to bear on many things, on many needs that Rwanda has. Whether it is about investment, foreign direct investment, trade, it's about education, it's about different areas of our development, we find that being in the family of nations of the Commonwealth is very beneficial.

ANDREW MARR:

What do you say to those people who say that Africa is a continent that never seems to change, never seems to get better; it's mired in cycles of violence and political stagnation?

PAUL KAGAME:

Those people are wrong. Certainly Africa is on the move and there is a tremendous improvement, and the people need to recognise that and accept it as a way of life. And Africa has huge resources and people should simply do better by not looking at Africa as a place just to do charity or humanitarian case. It is a place to invest.

ANDREW MARR:

Almost all the commentators on your country say similar things. They say that you've achieved great growth rates, that this is a clean, relatively safe, well ordered country. However, they also say that you have a poor record on human rights, particularly on democracy; that of the opposition parties against you, I think two were banned, three of them were unable to run against you in the election; and that if you simply look at the 93 per cent that you got, no democratic leader in a real democracy gets 93 per cent.

PAUL KAGAME:

If you look at this growth, if you look at the stability in the country, investment in women, investment in our children, which is our future; if you look at investment in infrastructure of information and communication, technologies, which empowers even our ordinary people in the rural areas. Now if you … And for the security, it's about involving ordinary citizens in making decisions … And then you say this is undemocratic, then I don't know what is democratic. But let me come to the point of elections.

ANDREW MARR:

Yes.

PAUL KAGAME:

First of all, elections are taking place. That's also a good step. Now maybe one can criticise the elections.

ANDREW MARR:

Only if they're real elections is it a good step.

PAUL KAGAME:

Alright, let me move on. Well I think elections, any elections are better than no elections at all.

ANDREW MARR:

Why stop these opposition parties taking part?

PAUL KAGAME:

It's not … You see again I'm talking about not contextualising things properly. Political parties are not stopped in any way; but, as you know it, even in these democracies you praise that are advanced, there are always rules to play by.

ANDREW MARR:

Can I put a suggestion to you?

PAUL KAGAME:

Alright.

ANDREW MARR:

Which is that after the terrible tribal genocide that tore your country apart - both sides committing terrible crimes, but particularly the Hutu who started the genocide - your belief is that to get Rwanda together as a country to move forward, that you have to go through a period, you are going through a period where you have to ensure that there is no tribal based politics of any kind at all, and to do that you have to repress parties and you have to repress politics …

PAUL KAGAME:

No, no, no.

ANDREW MARR:

… and that is the dilemma that you're in?

PAUL KAGAME:

No, no, no. I think this is just an intellectual perspective of somebody sitting somewhere not in the situation and they're just theorising …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) In Australia, yuh.

PAUL KAGAME:

I think that's what you are doing. The progress being made is not just being made in the economic arena. It's also in the governance, it's also in democratisation, it's also in all kinds of freedoms that Rwandans and rights Rwandans should enjoy. It is that progress.

ANDREW MARR:

And to all those people like the Human Watch organisation, like the Economist, respected paper, who say there's less … there's actually less democratic press freedom in Rwanda than there is in Zimbabwe?

PAUL KAGAME:

You see … Well if you personally went there and asked the Rwandans …

ANDREW MARR:

Yuh.

PAUL KAGAME:

… they would tell you a different story. So whether you are going to believe the story told by somebody in the Economist and the Human Rights Watch and you don't want to believe the story of Rwandans, that's your choice. But I'm speaking here on behalf of Rwandans.

ANDREW MARR:

You would say to me and you would say to the people watching that all those stories about assassinations, about you know the press being repressed, about unfair blocking of political opponents, that this is all propaganda?

PAUL KAGAME:

It's absolute nonsense.

ANDREW MARR:

You don't accept any of it?

PAUL KAGAME:

It's absolute nonsense. There are people who don't want to see Rwanda improve, who don't want to believe even what they see in Rwanda in terms of progress. We have these people. But they have a pen, they write, they are individuals. But there are 11 million Rwandans and the majority, the most majority of them, would tell you a different story about Rwanda - where they have come and where they have gone? And this is the real life on the ground and it doesn't change the facts.

ANDREW MARR:

President, thank you very much indeed for joining us.

PAUL KAGAME:

Thank you.

INTERVIEW ENDS

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