Transcript William Hague interview

PLEASE NOTE "THE ANDREW MARR SHOW" MUST BE CREDITED IF ANY PART OF THIS TRANSCRIPT IS USED

On 16th October 2011 Andrew Marr interviewed Foreign Secretary William Hague.

ANDREW MARR:

Well we've talked this morning already about Libya. We've talked about the Middle East. We've talked about the Euro crisis, the Fox resignation. A man who can help us with all of these and more is of course the Foreign Secretary, William Hague. Welcome.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Good morning.

ANDREW MARR:

Good morning. Let's start, if we may, with the Fox resignation. Right at the beginning of the show, I read out what the Prime Minister had said about the need to clean up lobbying and to make lobbying more transparent. And he said that you know there should be a register of lobbyists, that it should be published, that there should be quarterly updates and so on. None of it has happened. In order to stop this problem becoming generic, shouldn't the government do more?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Well I think we will. As you know, the cabinet secretary is doing a report that will be published in the coming days, and so it will be important to take stock after that report of whether there are any implications, wider implications for the government.

ANDREW MARR:

Because it was part I think of the original coalition deal that there was going to be some larger measure on lobbying.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Yes and I think we'll have to take stock of that. I think ministers will have to discuss that, but with the advantage of having seen that report. And of course we don't have that advantage as we talk on Sunday morning. It will be published in the coming days. So we will have to look at that. I don't think, by the way, that the arrangements that have been described in the press - although again we'll have to see the report to see what the cabinet secretary thinks about that, that Liam Fox had - are generic across the government. But, nevertheless, if there is action that has to be taken, the Prime Minister will want to take it.

ANDREW MARR:

What we do know is that people with defence related interests had been paying for somebody who was then organising meetings with the defence secretary without MoD officials being present. What would be a good phrase for that?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Well again you're trying to get me onto what may be in this report.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) These are things that we know about already.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Yes well …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) None of that I think is …

WILLIAM HAGUE:

… I wouldn't be so bold as to say exactly what we read in newspapers is what we know about already. So let's see what the cabinet secretary's report says. But again I would say this about that; that the idea that it's possible to run a completely separate policy by one minister is a fanciful idea. You know the foreign policy of this country is set by me and the Prime Minister, working through the National Security Council, pursued by 140 ambassadors in 260 embassies and consulates. It's a huge operation. One adviser or non-advisor (whatever he may have been) to one minister isn't able to run a totally different policy from the rest of the government, and I think that people can at least by reassured about that. But about all the allegations - and there are very legitimate questions about all of these things - we will have to see the report in a few days time.

ANDREW MARR:

So when you hear that - if it's true of course - that Mr Werritty was in Iran, has been dealing with Iranian exiles, discussing the overthrow of the Ahmadinejad regime, it might be a very good thing to be discussing, but nonetheless not part of the Foreign Office operation. When you hear about the discussions in Sri Lanka, you're not at all concerned that there have been discussions, there have been policies being discussed outside the FCO?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Well again we'll have to see what the report says about these things. My own experience of dealing with Liam Fox on these questions - on Sri Lanka, for instance, you mentioned Sri Lanka - is if I asked him not to go to Sri Lanka at a particular time, he didn't go. If I asked him when he went to convey the messages of the government and messages from me to the Sri Lankan government, then he conveyed those messages. So he acted, in my experience, in coordination with me and on the instructions of the Foreign Office in foreign policy. But again, I don't want to anticipate everything that is in this report …

ANDREW MARR:

Sure.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

… but I think those things are at least of some reassurance to people who will be worried about what has been alleged.

ANDREW MARR:

Did you know Mr Werritty?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

No. Well I haven't met him while I've been Foreign Secretary. Only in passing I think as Shadow Foreign Secretary, so I wouldn't be able to say that I …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) As Shadow Foreign Secretary. So you have met him?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

… I wouldn't be able to say that I knew him.

ANDREW MARR:

And did you have any sense of what he was doing? Was he an adviser? Was he a … Did you have any …?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

I don't have any sense of that other than what's been discussed over the last few days. He's not somebody I came across as … not somebody I've come across as Foreign Secretary while we've been in government. So again I think that puts these things into perspective, but clearly there are important questions to answer here. Mistakes have been made. Liam Fox in his resignation letter said that he had made mistakes …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) Yes indeed.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

… between his personal interest and the government responsibilities that he had. So that is acknowledged, we don't make light of that, but it is important to see it in its proper perspective.

ANDREW MARR:

And to be absolutely clear - were it to be the case that somebody was organising meetings between potential defence contractors and clients and a minister outside the system, that would be a fundamental breach of everything that ministers are supposed to do?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Well it's wrong to purport to do things on the part of the government if it's not on behalf of the government, and it is wrong of course for any financial interest …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) But you've seen pictures of the card, the business cards that he was handing out.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Yeah well let's see … You're understandably trying to ask me about things the cabinet secretary is going to addre…

ANDREW MARR:

(over) I am.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

… which is your job. And my job is to say, look, to be fair the cabinet secretary is addressing these things.

ANDREW MARR:

Okay, well here's one thing that I'm sure you can address. Atlantic Bridge - what was all that about?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Well Atlantic Bridge was part, was one of many organisations which promote good links, transatlantic links between American and British politicians and the communities in general. There are many such organisations. That is obviously a good thing to do …

ANDREW MARR:

Absolutely.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

… and I don't think it was a sinister organisation. I spoke once at one event organised by Atlantic Bridge in the United States, and there was quite a wide range of people there. So the idea that you know it was only a tea party connection, I think was wrong. But we support, many of us support a wide range of organisations …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) But it was an organisation …

WILLIAM HAGUE:

(over) … British and American politicians to know each other.

ANDREW MARR:

It was an organisation which claimed to be a charity and then got into trouble with the charity commissioners and then had to stop being a charity.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Clearly then, there were some things wrong in that particular case.

ANDREW MARR:

And you were on the board at the time.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Well no, what's called an advisory council, which is names on the letterhead.

ANDREW MARR:

Right.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

There are dozens of organisations who have their name on the letterhead.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) Right, Council of Elders as we were taught.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

(over) It doesn't mean that you know how the thing is run in detail. The concept of supporting strong ties between Britain and America is a good one. Atlantic Bridge was part of supporting that concept.

ANDREW MARR:

Right. And you didn't come across Mr Werritty in that context? I mean that was earlier on.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

No, I don't think so - no, no. I think you'd find the contacts of other ministers, apart from Liam Fox with Mr Werritty, would be very slight.

ANDREW MARR:

And you were comfortable with what Atlantic Bridge was doing as an organisation?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Well I think, as I say, organisations that support strong transatlantic ties are to be supported. It doesn't mean that any of us can know the details of how they're all run.

ANDREW MARR:

Alright. Let's move onto some of the other big stories around today. We hear about another two trillion euro boost being discussed between Germany and France to try and dig the Greeks out of their trouble. It is starting to look as if there is not going to be an alternative to some kind of orderly default by Greece, isn't it?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Well I don't think it's helpful for ministers to speculate about that. We have given clear advice. The Chancellor's given very clear advice to the Eurozone about the need to ring-fence the problem in Greece by having a very substantial expansion of the stability fund, to recapitalise certain banks, and to resolve the situation in Greece, and there are various ways of doing that on which we've given private advice as well as the public advice that I've just referred to. We want to see the Eurozone stabilised. I yield to no-one as a critic of the euro, and I've always been a strong critic of the euro, and I think it has many fundamental problems, but it is in our interest now in Britain for it to be stabilised and to have a healthy Eurozone.

ANDREW MARR:

You're in the strange position of being, as you say, a great critic of the whole Euro project, and yet the British position seems to be that they have to go, those in it have to go even further in a sort of euro federalist direction - a single economy policy, a single fiscal policy - to save the currency.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

They will have to integrate to a greater extent. And indeed one of our criticisms has always been that if you set up a single currency, then there are certain logical consequences of that. One of the reasons we always argued Britain shouldn't join is because we don't want to be caught up in any loss of control of our economic policy. But, yes, the Eurozone countries do face that prospect and they will have to follow at least some of the logic of having a single currency. But we leave them to stabilise it. Britain will support stabilising it. That doesn't mean we will be involved in Eurozone bailouts. We have helped Ireland, but we will not be involved, we're not involved in other Eurozone bailouts.

ANDREW MARR:

Sir John Major said on the programme last week that he thought the possibility of repatriating powers as a result of all of this - and he singled out some of the employment laws, fisheries and other things that could be repatriated - could be much closer than people thought; that we actually were quite close to some kind of crisis in the European structure, which would allow us to repatriate powers and presumably also allow a referendum.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Well the repatriation of powers to this country - which is something I'm in favour of, by the way …

ANDREW MARR:

Yes.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

… is not an immediate prospect because no countries are proposing wide-scale treaty change. And they may change, but at the moment that is not what they're proposing. And a British opportunity to address those sorts of issues comes if there is a major change in the European treaties and the other nations need our cooperation in order to do that. So our priorities, given that there is no major treaty change on the cards at the moment, are to protect our own financial services industry, to hold down the European budget, and to make sure that the 17 Eurozone countries can't caucus together and impose their views on the other 10 who are not in the euro about matters that are not concerned with the euro.

ANDREW MARR:

And that is more important to you now than a referendum because actually any treaty change could in theory, according to the original Conservative policy, trigger a referendum? And you just said it would have to be a major change.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Well, no, any treaty change that transfers power from Britain to the EU will be subject to a referendum. We have now passed a law - the European Union Act of 2011 - which in contrast to what happened in the last government …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) So you're not going soft on all of this …

WILLIAM HAGUE:

(over) I've no …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) … because you're Foreign Secretary and you're worried about …

WILLIAM HAGUE:

(over) I'm not soft and will never go soft on this. I believe in being in Europe but not run by Europe, in my slogan of ten years or so ago. That is still my belief. But the opportunity for major changes in the European treaties is not there yet, and our priority is for the Eurozone to be stabilised and at the same time to protect the British national interest.

ANDREW MARR:

Libya is really clearly now absolutely at the end game. It's over for the Gaddafi loyalists, even though Gaddafi himself hasn't been found. I think you're going to the region shortly.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Yes.

ANDREW MARR:

Just talk us through what you think now needs to happen in terms of elections and reconciliation of the dangers of violence against ex-Gaddafi people now.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Well there is still some fighting going on …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) In Sirte.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

(over) … and in another place called Bani Walid. Once the fighting in Sirte is over, we expect the National Transitional Council to declare the formal liberation of Libya. And that starts the clock ticking on thirty days to form a transitional government, an inclusive government in Libya, and then an eight month timetable to elections. We want all that to happen of course, for Libya to have a democratic and free future. It's important that they address any accusations. There have been accusations this last few days of the mistreatment of prisoners. Our embassy have already raised that with them, and I will raise it with them when I visit Libya shortly. But I have to say, the leadership of the NTC in Libya, Chairman Jalil, have always been very, very clear about this, about the standards that they must uphold. I think their commitment to a free and democratic country is very sincere. So we should support them in achieving that goal.

ANDREW MARR:

And you're not worried that there are Islamist extremist elements there who might suddenly come to the fore?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Well this term 'Islamism', it covers a vast range of wider meanings.

ANDREW MARR:

(over/laughing) That's why I used it.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Yes, that's right. And there are people who can be described as Islamists who are in favour of what one might describe as being a moderate Muslim country. There are others who are what we would call …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) Terrorists.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

(over) … extremists. So it is important that Libya moves in that moderate Muslim direction. But from everything I have seen so far, that is the direction they are moving in. And the opportunity now for Libya, Egypt, Tunisia, Morocco, all these countries with big change going on in these countries, there's a tremendously exciting opportunity for them to have closer links with Europe, for them to develop their economies, for a huge advance in human freedom. So amidst all the problems we face in the world - some of which we've been discussing - this has tremendous positive potential: the Arab Spring.

ANDREW MARR:

Yuh. But just to be clear about it, you are concerned about stories that there could now be sort of pretty unpleasant mistreatment of Gaddafi loyalists and Gaddafi people, and you're going to raise, you are going to raise that?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

(over) We're concerned about any such … Any report by Amnesty International, we take very seriously. Of course we will be raising that further. But I do believe they are sincere in their determination to root out any such abuses.

ANDREW MARR:

You said in the House of Commons that Syria have been … faced by a fork in the road, have taken the wrong road. What can happen now? I know that the various other Arab governments are coming together shortly to decide what to do.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

They're meeting today in Cairo. I discussed this with the Prime Minister of Qatar yesterday. I was urging the Arab countries to take a stronger stance, to take a steadily stronger stand. I think they will do that, although they require unanimity to do that and that's a problem for them. Lebanon has deep links with Syria and it's not easy for the Lebanese government to take a strong stand on this. We will keep up the international pressure. We have now banned all Syrian crude oil imports into the European Union, which is 90 per cent of their crude oil exports. So we will keep up and intensify the international pressure on this appalling regime that has now killed at least 3,000 of their own people.

ANDREW MARR:

Can I ask a more general question? Sir Max Hastings was discussing this earlier on. The thought that we are actually, as a country, and indeed across the West, facing a much more severe and difficult economic outlook that will have political consequences perhaps than politicians tend to accept, tend to admit to. That we are facing much, much harder years ahead and that at some point politicians are going to have to start standing up and telling us about it and being straight with us?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Well I think we have started … You know I think this government has been very clear with people that we cannot go on in this country in the way that we were in previous years. We've got to tackle the debts and the deficits. One of the arguments I made at our party conference a couple of weeks ago is that now growth is not automatic, and that some Western countries will make this transition - they will increase the skills of their people, the flexibility of their economies - and some won't. Now we have to make sure we're one of the countries that does make that transition. And that's the importance of what Michael Gove is doing in education and Iain Duncan Smith in welfare - so that we can make that change in this country.

ANDREW MARR:

And what about all the protestors now around the world, including in London, who just feel that the bankers and the old guard have got away with it?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Well, we support the right to a peaceful protest. It's very important those protests are kept peaceful. But it is true that a lot of things have to be faced up to in the Western world and there have been too many debts built up by states, and clearly in the banking system a lot has gone wrong.

ANDREW MARR:

So you have some sympathy with those young people who've been up all night sitting in tents, protesting about this?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Well I have some sympathy of course with people who are unhappy at what we're facing in the world. However, protests won't be the answer to that. The answer is governments to control their debts and deficits for us to boost the human capital of our country. That's why we are increasing the number of apprenticeships, that's why we've increased the number of university places this year. These are the real positive answers that will address it. I'm afraid protesting in the streets is not going to solve the problem.

ANDREW MARR:

William Hague, thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Thank you.

INTERVIEW ENDS

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