Transcript George Mitchell interview

PLEASE NOTE "THE ANDREW MARR SHOW" MUST BE CREDITED IF ANY PART OF THIS TRANSCRIPT IS USED

On 16th October 2011 Andrew Marr interviewed American Senator George Mitchell.

ANDREW MARR:

Within days of becoming the United States President, Barack Obama signalled his commitment to finding peace in the Middle East by appointing Senator George Mitchell as his Special Envoy. A big figure in American politics for years; boss of the Disney corporation, credited with turning that around, Senator Mitchell's best known here as the man who accomplished so much in Northern Ireland in the peace process. Appointed to talk to Israel and to Palestinians, he once said that every conflict could be ended. "They're created and sustained by human beings. They can be ended by human beings." After two years of trying, Senator Mitchell resigned his post this spring amid suggestions he was exasperated by the lack of movement. Well he is visiting the UK to speak at an event organised by One Voice, a conflict resolution group working with both the Israelis and the Palestinians, and he joins me now. Senator Mitchell, welcome.

SENATOR MITCHELL:

Thanks for having me.

ANDREW MARR:

So can I ask about why you decided that it was time to move on from what must have been, I'm sure, a frustrating role and a difficult one? Did you think that actually in the end the United States didn't have enough heft to shift the Israelis?

SENATOR MITCHELL:

No, the reason I left is that when President Obama asked me to accept the position, I told him that I could serve for no more than two years.

ANDREW MARR:

Right.

SENATOR MITCHELL:

That I would do so and then I would leave. And that's what happened. I do think that the situation is very difficult obviously - conflicts that are centuries in the making often take years to overcome - but I still believe that if not in the immediate future, where it's hard to be optimistic, over some time the parties, Israel and Palestine, their people will recognise that the pain of getting to an agreement is less than the pain they will endure if they don't get to an agreement. And I think that ultimately will prevail.

ANDREW MARR:

Quite a few commentators, nonetheless, after President Obama made his great speech in Cairo and raised so many hopes wondered why America didn't do more because in terms of military contacts and commercial contacts and cultural contacts and all the rest of it, there was the ability to put sort of pressure on Mr Netanyahu. You know he's a tough character, we all knew where he was coming from, and there didn't seem to be that kind of pressure. Absent to that pressure, it was hard, wasn't it, to see how things were going to change?

SENATOR MITCHELL:

Well of course from the other side's perspective, there was too much pressure. So I think it depends on your point of view as to how much is the right amount of pressure. And they're all tough guys in the region …

ANDREW MARR:

Yuh.

SENATOR MITCHELL:

… not only the Prime Minister, but everyone involved. We made a real effort. But in the end, Andrew, the decisions made there will have to be made by Israelis and Palestinians with the active and sustained support of the United States and our allies and many friends in the region. But it won't be the American people who decide the future of Israelis and Palestinians. It will be Israelis and Palestinians.

ANDREW MARR:

And you were absolutely at the core of this for two years. What in your view has been the toughest part of the whole situation to shift?

SENATOR MITCHELL:

Israel has a state, a very successful one. They don't have security for their people and that's what they want. The Palestinians don't have a state, and they want one - an independent, viable state, so that they can enjoy the self-respect that comes from self-governance. I believe that neither can attain its objective by denying to the other side its objective. That is to say, I don't think the Palestinians are going to get a state until the Israelis feel a sense of reasonable and sustainable security. I don't think the Israelis can get that until the Palestinians get a state. So the outcome, it seems to me, is clear. The problem is getting there. Both societies are deeply divided and it's very difficult politically for any leader to make anything resembling the compromises necessary to accommodate the other side's concerns, and that's the big hurdle.

ANDREW MARR:

Of course the Palestinians are making a push at the moment in the United Nations for statehood …

SENATOR MITCHELL:

Yes.

ANDREW MARR:

… and the United States appears likely to veto this. That's going to be very hard to explain across the wider region given that Palestinian statehood has been part of what the United States says it's fighting for.

SENATOR MITCHELL:

The United States does strongly favour the creation of a Palestinian state as part of a two state solution, which provides to both sides their principal objective. But we believe, and the parties themselves - President Abbas and Prime Minister Netanyahu have both said - that the only way that will be achieved is through direct negotiation supported by …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) So do you regard this as a kind of sort of propagandistic thing that's going on in the United Nations?

SENATOR MITCHELL:

Well I wouldn't call it propagandistic. That's a pejorative phrase. They're obviously trying to advance their objective, but if the goal is a state, they themselves have acknowledged the only way to get a state is to get into negotiations. And the concern we have about that approach is that it makes negotiations less likely rather than more likely.

ANDREW MARR:

Meanwhile, there is a problem in the sense that Hamas is gaining traction and gaining credibility. A very big prisoner swap deal has just been agreed, and that is presumably a concern because if Hamas are on the rise and Prime Minister Abbas is on the down, then it's going to be much harder, isn't it?

SENATOR MITCHELL:

Well of course there are ups and downs. Just a couple of weeks ago when President Abbas appeared before the United Nations to file his request, he went up. And now Hamas is coming up. So wait another week and something else will happen. It's up and down. But that is a concern. The United States favours the involvement of all parties provided they meet the simple, basic, democratic demands that everyone has in the region and among the EU and other allies in the West.

ANDREW MARR:

But when you took on the job, you must have thought there was the chance of a breakthrough. You must have thought this is a moment of hope, and you heard the President talking about hope. What went wrong, do you think?

SENATOR MITCHELL:

Well it's a conflict of centuries in the making and there were deep roots. I never was certain that there would be an agreement, but I was optimistic and hopeful. And I still am. I think that with patience and perseverance, this can be done. I think what went wrong is that the parties so far have been unwilling to take the painful steps politically in terms of their internal dynamics to move to the next level and to accommodate the other side because, I repeat, the only way each can get what it wants is to accommodate the principal concern of the other side.

ANDREW MARR:

President Carter told us recently that he thought the time had come to talk to Hamas; that they had moved to a position where they had become a genuine potential interlocutor.

SENATOR MITCHELL:

Hamas has made many statements to many people - many of them contradictory, some private, some public. Once they make a clear statement that they will comply with democratic norms and the positions are set out clearly, then of course they'll be welcomed into the process. Until they do so, however, as in other conflicts they should not be. You know, Andrew, in Northern Ireland a principal step was taken when I set forth what became known as the Mitchell Principles, and all of the paramilitaries agreed with them. They included the renunciation of violence and the acceptance of exclusively democratic means to resolve dispute. Those aren't directly applicable in the Middle East, but when people make clear their willingness to participate in a manner that is consistent with democratic principles, well then of course they'd be very welcome.

ANDREW MARR:

So you can help people make peace, but you can't make them make peace? They have to be ready for it?

SENATOR MITCHELL:

That's exactly right.

ANDREW MARR:

Senator Mitchell, thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning.

SENATOR MITCHELL:

Thank you, Andrew.

INTERVIEW ENDS

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