On 18th September 2011 Andrew Marr interviewed Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg ANDREW MARR: Now then from the General Election adulation of "I agree with Nick" to having dog dirt shoved through his letterbox, it has been - to say the least - a rollercoaster ride for the Deputy Prime Minister. This week one newspaper claimed he'd promised his wife he would only serve one term. Whether that's true or not, he's got some huge decisions ahead of him as the coalition struggles with hard times. Nick Clegg joins me now. Good morning. NICK CLEGG: Good morning. ANDREW MARR: Let's talk, to start with, about hard times. We have the euro crisis all around us … NICK CLEGG: Yuh. ANDREW MARR: … and the latest figures suggest that we may either have a completely flat period in the economy or things might actually return to recession. So talk us through just how bad you think, how worried you are about the economy, first of all. NICK CLEGG: Well I think the situation is very serious. You know we are a very open economy. We are hugely dependent on what happens around us, particularly on the Eurozone. Forty per cent of our exports and more go into the Eurozone, so if things are spluttering there - as they are very seriously - then of course that affects us massively, which is why you know it's hugely in our national interest to make sure that the Eurozone is strong. But that doesn't mean there aren't things we can do at home. Now of course we're balancing the books, everyone knows that; we're reducing the burden on businesses - less red tape, less tax. But I think there are more things we can do to create jobs today and build for tomorrow, and that's why you know last week I made a speech about how we're giving priority to infrastructure projects. Danny Alexander today has talked about £500 million being set aside for local infrastructure projects. What does infrastructure mean? Broadband, housing, rail, roads. And you know Vince Cable has also been talking about the need to do that - to kind of really, to really make sure that we foster confidence where we can even though, you're right, the wider context is really tough. ANDREW MARR: I want to come back to the wider context in a minute, but there's a sort of simple question which is you're cutting expenditure, taxes remain high in order to balance the books, so where possibly is the money going to come from for the kind of substantial infrastructure projects that would actually get unemployment down? NICK CLEGG: Well let me just first a little bit of perspective. We as a government are still spending £700 billion a year. That is … (Marr tries to interject) No but hang on … ANDREW MARR: None of us understand what that means. That's the trouble. NICK CLEGG: Okay well let me … The thing is there is this ludicrous caricature that because we're balancing the books government can't do anything, that somehow we're turning the clock back to the 80s or the 30s. Do you know as a proportion of the country's wealth, this government will be spending more in public spending at the end of this parliament, after all these cuts, than Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were when they came into power. So there's a lot that government can still do - not only through direct spending on Broadband, on housing, on road, on rail, but some of the innovations. We're setting up the first green investment bank, which is an investment bank which takes public money, taxpayers' money, and then gets private investors' money into, for instance, renewable energy. ANDREW MARR: (over) So coming back to my … NICK CLEGG: (over) That makes a big difference in actually creating jobs today, but, as I say, building for the future as well. ANDREW MARR: So where does the money come from for these big projects, and how much money will there be? NICK CLEGG: Well there will be literally billions of pounds of investment, which we'd already planned, but what we're making sure is that the ones which stimulate growth most effectively now and help for instance employ young people, young men who at the moment can't find a job, that they are given real priority. ANDREW MARR: Give me some examples of those. NICK CLEGG: Well you know we have already said that we're going to invest hundreds of millions of pounds into super fast Broadband. Now that's a good thing for the country in the future, but you need to employ people to dig up the roads and actually put in the new cabling and the fibre optic cables. ANDREW MARR: But this is not new money, is it? This is something you've announced already. NICK CLEGG: Well let's be clear. Quite a lot of it is money that was already in the system, but, crucially, we will actually by 2014/15 be spending a little bit more on what they call capital spending - on these big, big projects … ANDREW MARR: (over) So no new money yet? NICK CLEGG: If I can just finish. … the previous government. But where you're wrong is that through these innovations, like the green investment bank, yes there is new money. What we're doing is … ANDREW MARR: So how much? NICK CLEGG: Well we calculate about £18 billion of new money will go into building, for instance, renewable energy infrastructure during this parliament. That is not to be sniffed at. Only £3 billion of that is taxpayers' money; and what we use, we use that money to then make sure that the private sector brings in other money. Let me give you one other example. There's a regional growth fund - something I sort of preside over in government - which is there to allocate money to businesses who kind of might be thinking of investing in a new bit of you know kit in the factory floor or opening a new factory unit, but just need a bit of a top-up to do that, and we're using this 1.5 billion pounds to do that. That's matching public money, taxpayers' money, with private money for the common good. ANDREW MARR: And yet you know that out there, there are no signs of growth. I mean the private sector is not racing to the rescue, as you might hope, and indeed everyone's looking at the global picture and shivering and retrenching rather than spending more. So what else can you do? What about looking again at the tax system for small businesses? What about tearing up some of the old planning rules to make it easier for house builders and other people to … NICK CLEGG: (over) Well we're doing … As you know - and it's very controversial - we are actually saying that we do need to look at these very antiquated planning rules … ANDREW MARR: (over) And you're a hundred per cent against the sort of green England …? NICK CLEGG: Well, look, I think some you know frankly rather misleading claims are being made that somehow we're going to destroy the green belt and so on, and that local people won't have their say. In fact in many respects local people will have more of a say. ANDREW MARR: But you … NICK CLEGG: What we're saying though is that we can't have a situation - and we're very pretty unique in this in the developed world - where if people want to get on with the development, it takes them years and years and years and years to get permission. We haven't got years. We've got to get moving as a country. Because you know … ANDREW MARR: Sure. NICK CLEGG: … economists talk about numbers and they talk about percentages and billions here and billions there. At the end of the day what this is all about is something much more elusive and much more delicate, which is just confidence. It's confidence to get people to start building that first house, confidence that the business uses money they've got to create a new job, confidence to households to go out and actually spend a bit of money in the high street. And that's a delicate thing. It's affected by international circumstances, over which we only have limited control - we have influence but not control - but we can also do things in the way that I've described to boost confidence at home. ANDREW MARR: Well let's talk about something which is all to do with confidence in the international environment, which is tax, income tax. Now the Chancellor is looking at whether or not the 50p band of tax actually raises any money at all. If he concludes that this is actually not bringing money into the Exchequer and presumably putting some people off at the top end, is it acceptable for that to go? NICK CLEGG: Look if we discover that the 50p rate just hasn't raised the money from the very wealthiest that it was supposed to, then clearly we need to look at other ways … ANDREW MARR: (over) And it can go. You're not going to stop it go? NICK CLEGG: No, no, let me finish the sentence. ANDREW MARR: Okay. NICK CLEGG: Rather important. … then I of course think we should look at other ways in which the wealthiest pay the amount that we'd expected through the 50p rate. This is a debate, by the way, which isn't just happening in Westminster and between political parties in Britain. Look at what President Obama has said overnight. ANDREW MARR: Sure. NICK CLEGG: Look at the debate in Germany, look at the debate in Italy, look at the debate in France. Across the developed world … ANDREW MARR: (over) It's all round the world, absolutely. NICK CLEGG: … everyone accepts, and I passionately believe, that when a lot of people are suffering - a lot of people on ordinary incomes are really finding it difficult to do the weekly shop, to pay these hugely inflated heating bills this winter - it simply would be incomprehensible to them, whatever the rate rise is … ANDREW MARR: Sure. NICK CLEGG: … to suddenly lower the tax burden on the very, very wealthiest. ANDREW MARR: I understand that absolutely. What I'm trying to find out is what might then happen. You mentioned last night again the mansion tax. So if the 50p rate was to be dropped, are you saying there would have to be a quid pro quo, something like the mansion tax, to replace it? NICK CLEGG: It's unfair on George Osborne I think for me to try and seek to write budgets now in a television studio. ANDREW MARR: Sure. NICK CLEGG: I'm not going to do it. ANDREW MARR: But I'm talking about the principles of different taxes. NICK CLEGG: The principles, as it happens, are agreed across government. And if you look at the budget statement, George Osborne himself said that yes we're going to look at the amount that the 50p raises, but at the same time we're going to look at the way in which the very wealthiest and those in very high value properties pay their fair share. So that is something which was in the budget statement, agreed across government, so clearly these things are linked. But can I just say something about … ANDREW MARR: Sorry, I just want to be absolutely clear about this before we move on. That you will block, you would stop any abolition of the 50p rate unless there was something else which raised money from the top earners? NICK CLEGG: I have two preoccupations, which is firstly I don't think it is morally or even economically right to unilaterally lower the tax burden on the very wealthiest when we haven't made much more progress, as I want us to, on lowering taxes for millions of people on ordinary incomes. ANDREW MARR: Right. NICK CLEGG: That remains my principal concern. That's the reason I got written into the coalition agreement that our overriding tax priority was lowering the tax burden on millions of people on low and ordinary incomes. And secondly, and secondly - which is your point - which is if the 50p does not raise money as we'd hoped from the very, very wealthiest - remember this is the top 1 per cent … ANDREW MARR: (over) Yeah, yeah … yeah, yeah, okay. NICK CLEGG: (over) … it's not the middle classes, it's the top 1 per cent … ANDREW MARR: (over) Yes, no I understand. NICK CLEGG: … then of course we need to look - and as the Chancellor himself has said - we've got to look at other ways to make sure that they pay their fair share. ANDREW MARR: So it stays unless there is an alternative. Yes or no? NICK CLEGG: It stays unless we can first make more progress on lowering the tax burden on people on low and middle incomes; and, secondly, making sure - as the Chancellor himself has said … ANDREW MARR: So two red lines there. NICK CLEGG: … and secondly, as the Chancellor himself has said, we can find other ways that the wealthiest pay their fair share. ANDREW MARR: Let's turn … NICK CLEGG: (over) Can I just on tax just generally because I think tax and benefits generally, you've got one debate which is about the sort of cheats on you know the benefit system at the bottom, and then a lot of noise as well - quite rightly - about how people get out of paying their fair share at the top. I just think we've got to remember that the real preoccupation should be - it's my real concern - is what happens to those millions of people who are kind of on ordinary incomes, on low and middle incomes. They often get overlooked in this debate about what happens to the benefit system at the bottom, the wealthiest at the top. The Liberal Democrats are there to really support and be on the side of millions and millions of people who play by the rules, work hard, pay their taxes and are feeling under an enormous amount of pressure right now. ANDREW MARR: A lot of Conservatives feel that those very same people, who are often the victims of the riots over the summer, are also furious about the way that criminals get off, about the fact that we can't send people out of the country when they've come in here and they've committed crimes, and they're looking more and more and more at the Human Rights Act as something that's getting in the way. And again there is government research being done on the effect of the Human Rights Act to see if parts of that can be removed or watered down or dealt with in some other way for what they would say are commonsense reasons that most people approve of. NICK CLEGG: Look anyone, any rational person looking at the people who've gone through the court system after the riots would say that the big problem is not the Human Rights Act. It has nothing to do with the Human Rights Act. The big problem is that we've been far too soft on repeat crime in this country for far, far too long. Lots and lots and lots of these people actually, it now turns out, had a long, long criminal record, as long as your arm. What has gone wrong, despite all the tough talk from Labour, pouring more and more people into the prison system, all that's happened is they've come out again, our prisons have become colleges of crime, and the young offenders of today become the hardened criminals of tomorrow. That's why I'm very excited and very supportive of Ken Clarke's rehabilitation revolution … ANDREW MARR: You called him a Liberal Democrat minister last night. NICK CLEGG: Well I certainly think on criminal justice, he's got it absolutely right - which is stop kind of all these distractions about some legalistic argument about the Human Rights Act which has nothing to do with the riots, nothing to do with the sentences passed. Let's deal with the issue at hand, which … ANDREW MARR: (over) Alright, I think you've just finished his career off as far as his party is concerned. NICK CLEGG: (laughs) Probably the kiss of death. ANDREW MARR: I think it probably is. Let's keep talking about Europe, however. What's the message to those Conservative eurosceptics who got together in a new organisation - they're talking to Labour eurosceptics as well - and they believe very strongly that we need to loosen our relationship now with Europe; that we need to repatriate powers, and they're looking forward to a referendum at some point before too long and we get another European Treaty? NICK CLEGG: Sure, I mean what is the strategic national interest for the United Kingdom in the European Union? ANDREW MARR: Yes. NICK CLEGG: My view - unambiguous, always has been the case - is that probably the greatest achievement in European integration over recent years was ironically enough a British achievement. It was a British commissioner - people have probably forgotten him, it was a guy called Lord Cofield - to create the world's largest … ANDREW MARR: (over) Single European … NICK CLEGG: (over) … largest borderless single market. It was Margaret Thatcher's government, a Conservative government, that introduced the Single European Act that allowed British businesses here in Birmingham, in the Midlands, to invent things, manufacture things and then export them completely freely into the largest consumer market in the world. I personally think that our absolute overriding priority if you want to protect jobs, want to protect communities, want to protect families is to actually deepen and widen that liberal, open free market right on our doorstep. And if instead what you do is you indulge in, I think, a complete distraction which is sort of creating a top ten hit list of the specific directives you don't particularly like - by the way the directives that I don't particularly like - you just kind of miss the big picture. The big picture is that if the Euro zone - as I hope they will - stabilise things by basically getting their act together and integrating a bit further in certain ways to really make sure the Eurozone is a success, the last thing we should is say oh well in that case we wash our hands of the whole enterprise and we'll kind of get out. That will destroy … ANDREW MARR: (over) And yet … Well okay … NICK CLEGG: … that will destroy jobs and destroy prosperity in this country. I think we should be saying … ANDREW MARR: Can I … NICK CLEGG: … yeah and in return for that, we want more access into the single market, which is still not complete. ANDREW MARR: And you still want to join the euro? NICK CLEGG: Look, I think there's absolutely no question of this country joining the euro - certainly not during this government. To call that an impossibility is to put it mildly. ANDREW MARR: Absolutely. But in principle you're still in favour of this currency, which is unravelling. NICK CLEGG: No, I'll tell you what I'm in principle in favour of. What I'm in principle in favour of is people simply recognising geographical reality. We are in Europe. We're not Alaska … ANDREW MARR: (over) But we're not in the euro. We're not in the euro - thank goodness many people would say. NICK CLEGG: (over) … no we're not Alaska, we're not on the other side of the Atlantic, we're not nestled geographically next to China. Europe influences us whether you like the EU or not. It has a massive effect on our everyday life … ANDREW MARR: (over) Can I … Okay, so can … NICK CLEGG: … and I want us to have if you like the kind of bulldog confidence of the British spirit to say instead of constantly looking for excuses to get out of the game, get in there, shape it, influence it and do so in the national interest. ANDREW MARR: What is our plan? How are we going to react if Greece and possibly other countries are forced out of the euro and we're facing a dramatically worsening situation there? NICK CLEGG: Well, look, I really really hope it won't come to that because that's not only bad for the Eurozone. As you rightly imply, that has knock-on effects on frankly I think the banking system across … ANDREW MARR: But if it does? NICK CLEGG: Well then of course the world as a whole would need to take very dramatic measures. But it's one of the reasons why I think both in the EU but also in the G8 and in the G20, we are playing a very active role and saying look the world has to react in a coordinated fashion. We can't just simply sit back and say that somehow what's going on over there has got nothing to do with us. It's all to do with us as well. ANDREW MARR: Your wife, we read, has a deal from you that you're going to only serve one term. Is that true? NICK CLEGG: How can I put this mild… I really wouldn't believe a word you read in the Daily Mail. This is the paper which called me a Nazi. Look, the Daily Mail and other papers, they've got a bee in their bonnet about the coalition and the Liberal Democrats and they come up with drivel every single day. I'm in this because I believe it's the right thing to do. Miriam … ANDREW MARR: (over) I understand, I understand that. NICK CLEGG: No hang on, let me give you an answer. Miriam supports me fully in this and I want to see us succeed in the coalition government and beyond. And let me explain why … ANDREW MARR: (over) Sorry, before we get there, I asked you a very, very clear question: are you in this for one term only, or do you intend to be Liberal Democrat Leader, do you intend to see it through beyond one term? NICK CLEGG: Absolutely, I intend to intend see it well beyond one term. ANDREW MARR: Right, that's very clear. NICK CLEGG: Alright? There you go, Daily Mail wrong. There's a surprise. ANDREW MARR: (over) Okay, well that's very clear. NICK CLEGG: But … ANDREW MARR: Sorry … In the same account, however, we also heard that your party has done quite a lot of work on a new coalition agreement that you're going to discuss and negotiate with the Conservatives for the second half of this parliament. Is that right? NICK CLEGG: Look, again, that account - I mean I haven't read it, but I've been told - says two diametrically opposite things: one, that we are plotting to negotiate a new coalition agreement; and the next, we're plotting to get out of the coalition. Let me tell you what we are actually planning to do … ANDREW MARR: Right. NICK CLEGG: … and let me be open about this. There's no secret about it. I think if you look at what the country's been through over the last few years - you know the really kind of difficult circumstances we've been through - there are millions of people who want a political party that believes you can create a strong economy and a fair society, and don't like being told that you have to choose between one or the other. And that's what the Liberal Democrats are about. We are a party of the head and the heart. You know for a long, long time, the Left … This is really important … the Left have sort of said well you can look after ordinary families but then you end up bankrupting the economy. The Right says well you can sort out the economy but you let down ordinary families. I think we've got to do both and that's what I believe we will … ANDREW MARR: (over) Okay … NICK CLEGG: (over) But hang on. ANDREW MARR: (over) … that's political aspiration. What I'm asking about … NICK CLEGG: (over) No, no, it's not political aspiration. ANDREW MARR: (over) … is whether for instance your aide, Polly McKenzie I think her name is, has actually drawn up a list of new things that you want to negotiate with the Conservatives during this parliament for its second half? Is that true or not true? NICK CLEGG: I haven't seen that list, so I can't tell you … ANDREW MARR: (over) T hat's not quite saying it's not true. NICK CLEGG: Look, I have no idea, Andrew. I'm sure there are lots of people … ANDREW MARR: (over) You're the Leader of the Liberal Democrats. Come on! NICK CLEGG: But I don't control what people do on their desktops every single day. ANDREW MARR: Okay. NICK CLEGG: Let me tell you what this government's priority is. The government's priority is to deliver the coalition agreement and, most importantly, to rescue and to repair the economy. ANDREW MARR: Can I just jump in there because you've actually, if I may say so, achieved some of the things that you wanted to do … NICK CLEGG: (over) Yes … ANDREW MARR: (over) … in your first agreement, and so a lot of people say well it's actually therefore time to do a second agreement. You have to move to the next phase and you have to have another discussion about the things that as parties you're going to agree. NICK CLEGG: (over) Where I agree with you - and in a sense I think frankly the means by which you do this, whether you do it with a list of here or there is kind of irrelevant … What do I think is necessary for this government to see its term through successfully to 2015 is yes of course we're a coalition. We have parties of different identities - that's obvious - and obviously at conference time, those different identities become even more accentuated. But to be a successful government, you have to be a government which has a common purpose, and that common purpose is firstly to sort out the economy and, secondly - and this is certainly my great passion - is to make sure that at the same time we give greater opportunity for people to get ahead: what is called in the jargon "social mobility". And I think that kind of repair job to the economy, but also a fairer society. ANDREW MARR: The two go together of course - if one doesn't work, then the other doesn't work. NICK CLEGG: Correct. ANDREW MARR: Is there any part of you, looking at the terrible economic circumstances which may be ahead, that thinks actually we do have to go a little bit slower and cut a little bit less hastily? NICK CLEGG: Oh I think people who advocate that just need to think this through. ANDREW MARR: (over) So the answer is no? NICK CLEGG: Well does anyone seriously think by ripping up the plan to balance the books that somehow you'll create growth by next Tuesday? It's a complete illusion. Actually what you create is outright market panic, higher interest rates and more unemployment. ANDREW MARR: Alright, Nick Clegg thank you very much indeed for joining us. NICK CLEGG: Thank you. INTERVIEW ENDS
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