On September 9th 2011 Andrew Marr interviewed Unite General Secretary Len McCluskey ANDREW MARR: The TUC conference opens in London tomorrow - its first ever time in the capital, I think - with much speculation about what the Labour Leader Ed Miliband might have to say about the relationship between his party and the union's 6.5 million members. But the main subject is going to be the continuing campaign against public sector cuts with threats of future strike action and civil disobedience by the unions this autumn, including Len McCluskey, the Leader of Britain's biggest union UNITE. Good morning, Mr McCluskey. LEN McCLUSKEY: Good morning, Andrew. ANDREW MARR: You've got 1.5 million members. What is the mood as the TUC gathers? You've got the challenge on pensions, you've got the challenge on public sector cuts. Describe the mood. LEN McCLUSKEY: I think it's simple. It's a very, very angry mood. Our members throughout the public service sector are infuriated by the fact that the government have launched this ideological attack on their work, their pensions, their jobs, but also within the private sector itself. The users of public services are angry that everything that has held our nations together for the past 65 years is under threat, and that's why we have to stand up and be counted. ANDREW MARR: So it's a sort of councillor war? LEN McCLUSKEY: Yes, if you want to put it that way. I mean obviously it's more a question of trying to build a campaign of resistance, so that the government will take stock and perhaps take a step back. What people need to understand is you know it was our parents and our grandparents who, having returned from the Second World War, decided that they were going to build a land fit for heroes. They built the welfare state, they created the National Health Service, they gave us universal education. All of that is now under threat, and I for one don't want my grandchildren saying well you did nothing when our heritage was being taken away. And that's the anger that we feel from the grassroots right throughout. ANDREW MARR: It seems on the face of it slightly unlikely that George Osborne's going to say, "Do you know what, Len McCluskey you're right and I'm going to change course", so what kind of action follows this autumn, this winter? LEN McCLUSKEY: Well you can only build a campaign of protest. I mean I'm one of these people - perhaps it's old-fashioned - to believe that in a democracy if you protest sufficiently, if sufficient numbers protest in various ways, then the government of the day, who are supposed to be responsible in governing on behalf of the people, will take note. And I think this government is becoming increasingly isolated from economists, from a umber of their own supporters. ANDREW MARR: So what kind of action? LEN McCLUSKEY: Well I think the actions that will be taken will be widespread, and I don't think we can rule anything out. I noted recently senior citizens protesting in Bristol by walking backwards and forwards across a zebra crossing and bringing things to a standstill. You look at young people in UK Uncut actually turning banks into crèches and protesting … ANDREW MARR: (over) So a sort of direct civil disobedience? LEN McCLUSKEY: Direct action - including of course industrial action because that's precisely what our members want. They expect their leaders to give that type of leadership and to stand shoulder to shoulder with them when their terms of conditions are being attacked. ANDREW MARR: So what do you say to those who say yeah, but these are very, very bleak times; we have a huge, huge borrowing debt, the money has to be paid back and there is no other way of paying it back but by implementing the cuts that the government's agreed? LEN McCLUSKEY: Well yes, it's this dogma of despair and fear, and that's what this government represents. Indeed Right Wing governments throughout the globe represent that. We've got to give something different. We've got to give hope. We've got to say there is an alternative to this type of … these type of cuts. ANDREW MARR: At a time when public sector pensions are still overall more generous than private sector pensions, do you think that people will be supporting strikes and disruption? LEN McCLUSKEY: I think we need … I think we need to kind of explode some of the myths. You know these attacks on pensions and talk about gold plated pensions, we're talking about dinner ladies getting £4,000 a year pension and having it cut back to £3,000 by the government's attacks. It's not what is being projected. ANDREW MARR: Yeah. LEN McCLUSKEY: You know look at, compare that with the top … the chief executives of the top 100 in the FTSE. Their average salary is 3.4 million. So much for us all being in it together. I mean the government come out with lie after lie. And the truth of the matter is it's about whose side are they on, and at the moment they're certainly not on the side of ordinary working people. ANDREW MARR: The Labour Leader Ed Miliband seems to want the voting in the Labour Party conference to be at least 50% non-union. Sorry more than 50% non-union voting - in other words to push you below a majority of voting. Is that a worry for you? LEN McCLUSKEY: Not particularly a worry for me. I mean the issue of re-founding Labour and the question of trying to make the Labour Party more vibrant is something I'm happy to look at. If there's perceived democratic deficit, I'm prepared to look at it. (Marr tries to interject) But I would say … ANDREW MARR: (over) Sorry, were you disappointed by some of the things he was saying about the earlier strikes and demonstrations? LEN McCLUSKEY: Oh without a shadow of a doubt. I think he made a fundamental error by attacking the strikes on 30th June. But you know he's learning in his job; he's got to be given time to construct his (hopefully) radical alternative. And I hope that will mean that he understands that he has to be on the side of ordinary working people. ANDREW MARR: Alright. LEN McCLUSKEY: If he's going to get Labour back into power, then Labour needs to be on the side of ordinary working people. ANDREW MARR: Len McCluskey, ahead of the conference thank you very much indeed for joining us. LEN McCLUSKEY: Thanks a lot, Andrew. INTERVIEW ENDS
| 
E-mail this to a friend 
Printable version 
Bookmark with:
What are these?