Transcript of Harriet Harman Interview

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Sophie Raworth interviewed the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party, Harriet Harman.

SOPHIE RAWORTH:

It's generally agreed that the Labour Party Leader, Ed Miliband, has had a better time of it recently by taking the lead on the phone hacking scandal and bringing the Prime Minister to book on his closeness to News International. But will the bounce that Mr Miliband has been enjoying last? Labour is neck and neck with the Tories. David Cameron is more popular personally than other party leaders. So do some in Mr Miliband's party still wonder if they chose the wrong brother? I'm joined now by Labour's Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman, who is also Shadow International Development Secretary; and because of that, let's start with the terrible situation on the Horn of Africa. Do you think we could be doing more?

HARRIET HARMAN:

Well I think to their credit, the government is carrying on with the commitment that we established of really increasing the amount of national wealth that's given in development aid and how important we can all see that is. I think what they should be trying to do more of though is making sure that other countries around the world play their part. I mean it's a desperate situation there at the moment. Every time you see a picture of a huge skull with its horns of a cow there and you see dusty land, you know that the farmers there have had to leave their land and flee with their families to a refugee camp, which you know is terrible suffering for them and millions are threatened with death from famine, but actually it means instability and ongoing poverty. So I think the government is absolutely right to be keeping on with the development aid, but we've got to be doing more to ensure other countries play their part as well.

SOPHIE RAWORTH:

So they are producing, they are giving enough money in your opinion …

HARRIET HARMAN:

(over) Yes, they really are.

SOPHIE RAWORTH:

… and you wouldn't be doing anything differently?

HARRIET HARMAN:

No, and I think it's really much to their credit. I think Andrew Mitchell is doing a really good job on international development.

SOPHIE RAWORTH:

And what about public donations? I mean there is a concern that people you know all over the world start suffering from 'famine fatigue' is you know the awful title that it is given, but do you think people are put off from giving money simply by the fact that they don't sometimes know where that money is going?

HARRIET HARMAN:

Well I think they can see where it's going and the Disaster Emergency Committee Appeal has evoked a massive response from people in this country. People give to Oxfam, they give to like Islamic Relief, and they can see that it's actually saving lives. So I think people have been very generous. And of course we've got a big diaspora of people who originated from Sudan, Ethiopia and Kenya living in this country, and of course they've been very generous in their giving as well.

SOPHIE RAWORTH:

A terrible situation though for a lot of those people. I mean there are 1500 people a day at the moment crossing over the border into Kenya, arriving in these camps, and there are people who've lived there for decades already in those camps.

HARRIET HARMAN:

I think it … You're absolutely right - it is a longer term problem - and that's why it's quite worrying to see in the longer term not … Well obviously we've got to be stepping up our action on climate change, which is very much in the background on this, but also commodity speculation - people who actually want to make money speculating on food prices - and that is something which I think internationally we've got to take action on. And also internationally taking action on people who are speculating on land prices - so they buy up land, don't farm it, hope to make a profit on selling it. Meanwhile that deprives the local people of the ability to farm. So I think there are some longer term things that have got to have some action taken on them as well.

SOPHIE RAWORTH:

And making money out of Africa is something also that you've been very much interested in because you went to Sierra Leone and you're calling for bigger companies to be far more transparent about what they get out of those countries.

HARRIET HARMAN:

Well across Africa there is massive mineral wealth, including actually in Sudan as well - across the whole of Africa, whether it's iron or gold, diamonds, oil. They have massive national natural resources. And what's important is not only that the investment goes in to extract those natural resources, but also the companies doing that pay their fair share of taxes, so that those countries can benefit in the longer term.

SOPHIE RAWORTH:

I want to talk about Ed Miliband in a moment and the state of the Labour Party, but first of all the story that's in the news today about health. And you are accusing the government of basically harming the poor to help the rich. That's not true, is it?

HARRIET HARMAN:

Well I think the government are breaking their promises on the health service and it's a really worrying situation. We've seen for the first time since 1997 spending on the health service fall. I mean in my own area, I was talking to King's College Hospital last week and they're having to cut their spending by 50 million. We've seen reports round the country of them actually making people wait longer when they need an operation for a hip replacement or a knee replacement or a cataract. You've got to wait longer in order to help them save money. And you know this is not what should be happening and it's breaking a promise.

SOPHIE RAWORTH:

But what you're saying is that the government is actually moving funds around, so poor areas like Tower Hamlets are getting less money than areas like Surrey. I mean the government … this is based on figures that have been drawn from Manchester, isn't it? These are figures that have been extrapolated from that. The government says it's nonsense. I mean isn't the truth that actually you're just trying to sort of hone in on a weak point that you think that the government might have?

HARRIET HARMAN:

No, these are national figures and they show for every health authority. I mean three things are happening. Firstly they're cutting the amount of money that's going to the National Health Service overall for the first time. Secondly, they're shifting resources away from the poor areas, which are more needy in health terms. And thirdly they're wasting money on reorganisation, so they're spending more money on administration. And as a result the health service will suffer. There's no doubt about that. I mean people shouldn't have to be waiting longer and it's a broken promise.

SOPHIE RAWORTH:

(over) But the government …

HARRIET HARMAN:

(over) So we're going to keep on arguing about this. I mean it's really worrying.

SOPHIE RAWORTH:

And it's very difficult for people to know who to believe because the government insists that it is increasing spending in real terms.

HARRIET HARMAN:

Well if you look at … These are from the Treasury's own figures and you can see it's something like £766 million less compared to what was in the figures for what we were going to spend. And it's in real terms. I mean these are the Treasury's own figures. You can ask Danny Alexander about them, I'm sure you will, but these are the Treasury's own figures and it's very worrying. And, as I say, in my own area. You can see it area by area and at King's College Hospital they're having to cut 50 million. I mean they will do their very best and the health service has been really improving with death rates falling and patient satisfaction increasing. And we saw the end of those terrible waiting lists that there were before we came into government, but now it's starting to creep back up again.

SOPHIE RAWORTH:

Let's talk about Ed Miliband because in September it will be a year since he became leader of the party. You know he's been given some bounce and he's been widely recognised as having done well during the whole phone hacking scandal. How's he going to keep that going though? Can he keep it going?

HARRIET HARMAN:

Well I wouldn't say it's so much that he's been given some bounce. He basically took a very bold step of just saying all this phone hacking is absolutely terrible. The idea that the government was days away of handing over to Rupert Murdoch the whole of BSkyB, and he stepped in and said this has got to stop. And I think that that was very important in terms of not having a huge monopoly ownership of the press, ensuring there was proper investigation on hacking, but it's also given a sort of sense of confidence that, even faced with a global multi-billionaire, that actually the public interest and people's voices have to be listened to. So I think he's really spoken up for …

SOPHIE RAWORTH:

(over) But that's … but it's one issue, isn't it? I mean phone hacking has been important.

HARRIET HARMAN:

(over) But it's symbolic, you see. It's actually …

SOPHIE RAWORTH:

(over) It is symbolic, but you know is it an election winning … is it something that is going to make him the next Prime Minister? I mean there's a poll out today that basically says that 47 per cent of people think that he will still be Labour Leader by 2015. I mean it doesn't really reassure you, does it?

HARRIET HARMAN:

Well I think what is reassuring is that people can see that normally you would think well Murdoch, global multi-billionaire, there's nothing that can be done about it, and actually Ed Miliband stepped forward. So if Murdoch can be …

SOPHIE RAWORTH:

(over) But there's got to be something else than phone hacking, hasn't there?

HARRIET HARMAN:

(over) No, but … No, but …

SOPHIE RAWORTH:

(over) I mean he's given himself some bounce, but if you look at last month the headlines are all about weak leadership, that he didn't have enough sort of dynamism. He was asked … he had to defend himself on that. He's got to keep that going. He's got to have a sort of … He's won the right to be heard. Now we want to know what he's going to say.

HARRIET HARMAN:

But my point is that if you can actually make the public interest override the decisions of a billionaire, then perhaps the energy companies it's the same. And actually where there are vested interests that are too powerful and harming the public interest, Ed Miliband has shown that he's prepared to step forward and speak up for that and really make a difference. I think without what he did, you know not only would they have owned the Times, the News of the World, the Sunday Times and the Sun, but they'd have also owned the whole of BSkyB and no doubt all of those abuses would have carried on unabated. So I think it's very important even as Leader of the Opposition.

SOPHIE RAWORTH:

Okay.

HARRIET HARMAN:

He's made a huge difference.

SOPHIE RAWORTH:

One bold move that he has definitely made is giving himself the ability to choose his top team. Will we know who that top team is before party season in September, before the conferences?

HARRIET HARMAN:

Well I think you know it's for him to decide you know who's going to be in his top team and when he makes that decision. But I think …

SOPHIE RAWORTH:

And are you having those discussions with him? I mean is he debating it with you? Is he openly talking about it now?

HARRIET HARMAN:

Well obviously you know that's entirely a matter for him, and you know obviously we've all got to play our part in that. But I think that the worry about the economy and the worry about health service are really key things that we're going to be focusing on; keeping on asking those questions about what the Murdoch Empire have been up to and making sure that those who have been wrongdoing are held to account, but also those very important issues about jobs and the health service too.

SOPHIE RAWORTH:

Harriet Harman, thank you very much.

INTERVIEW ENDS

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