Transcript of Sir Hugh Orde Interview

PLEASE NOTE "THE ANDREW MARR SHOW" MUST BE CREDITED IF ANY PART OF THIS TRANSCRIPT IS USED

James Landale interviewed Head of the Association of Chief Police Officers, Sir Hugh Orde.

JAMES LANDALE:

Now this week the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, Sir Paul Stephenson, retired, as did his Assistant Commissioner John Yates. Both were casualties of the phone hacking crisis that has exposed both Scotland Yard's failure to investigate properly and its close links to News International. So what now for the Met? Well I'm joined now by Sir Hugh Orde, the President of the Association of Chief Police Officers. We'll talk about phone hacking in a second, but first we must address issues in Norway. Can you give us a sense of what's going on at the moment - the contacts there'll be between the British police and the police over there, and what kind of experience and support and help that the British police can provide?

SIR HUGH ORDE:

Well obviously there'll be a very large, substantial inquiry by the Norwegian police who are a highly professional and competent modern police service. We have already offered help, as you heard the Foreign Secretary talking about, which I think is very reassuring. It sends a very clear message about the confidence in which he holds the British police service. I spoke to the National Coordinator only this morning, Stuart Osborne, who assures me we've made those offers, as has my organisation around victim identification if required. So we stand ready to help. We have a lot of experience, going back many years sadly in terrorism, as the Foreign Secretary pointed out. We will help if we are asked to do so.

JAMES LANDALE:

But let me put that question I put to William Hague to you. How do you deal with the lone gunman who hasn't got … there's no presence on the internet maybe, there's no network of which he's a part, and he or she just goes out and does something like this? Can you ever defend against that?

SIR HUGH ORDE:

Well you can do your level best. First of all, we don't know if this was a lone gunman or not. It's too early in the inquiry …

JAMES LANDALE:

(over) Of course.

SIR HUGH ORDE:

… and I certainly have no information on that. In terms of what you can do - and we have done to a very substantial degree in this country - you plan and you prepare for those events which slip through the intelligence net. You could know about everything. It would be a country you or I would not want to live in. 1984 would look like a liberal democracy compared to the intelligence structures. You would need to know everything about everybody. But you plan. And only recently in the cabinet office briefing room, we ran a major exercise - including with John Yates - to make sure we were as well prepared as we can be to deal with this sort of threat in this country. And the test stood up to its name - we delivered.

JAMES LANDALE:

Why did you do that test? Did you do that test because you thought there's a real prospect of it possibly happening?

SIR HUGH ORDE:

Because you have to keep ahead of the game. Policing continues to regenerate against the threats we see in the real world. We knew from Mumbai, for example, we had to start thinking in very different ways. Terrorism moves all the time. You can see the experience from Northern Ireland comes in there, and we see here a fertiliser bomb seems highly likely, so things move on. The trick of policing - and this is where British police stand up - is we look at these things, we learn from them, we engage with government who give us additional funding, and we prepare to protect the citizens in this country as best we can within the legal framework we have. You must not step out of the legal framework when you're gathering intelligence.

JAMES LANDALE:

Okay, let's move onto phone hacking. Poor investigation, incredibly close links to News International, two of the most senior police officers forced to resign. Just give us a sense of the crisis that the Metropolitan Police is facing this morning.

SIR HUGH ORDE:

Well, first of all, the Metropolitan Police has huge strength in depth, so there are some outstanding leaders who have taken up the helm and will continue to deliver policing. My sense is of course 140,000 police officers in this country are looking at this and are clearly worried. They need very quickly new leadership to be put in and I see the advertisement has already gone out, so there's a plan in place. Policing is a very resilient organisation. We will continue to protect the citizen. I am deeply concerned about this suggestion that 140,000 cops out there are taking payments. It's the most bizarre suggestion I've heard; we're one of the least corrupt police services. But we're not complacent around that, and indeed Her Majesty's Inspector is looking at that in a very detailed and focused way and we need to look at the outcome to form a clear view on just how … what the challenges are facing this police service.

JAMES LANDALE:

But there is some corruption. It's being investigated. There will be some people who potentially will be arrested and jailed for this. How does the Met restore confidence without having some kind of you know formal demonstration of it like that?

SIR HUGH ORDE:

By continuing to deliver the service the public of London expect and require. If one looks at confidence in policing, it's at a far high level than it was for example when I joined. So let's not lose our nerve here. We need to put the right structures in above it because officers look for leadership - that's clear. But you saw the Chief Officer of the police service of this country, Sir Paul Stephenson, saying, "Look this happened on my watch. I am responsible. I am therefore … It's on my watch. I am resigning." Compare that to Rupert Murdoch - complete denial of any responsibility of his organisation.

JAMES LANDALE:

(over) But you think, you think a couple of resignations is enough to restore confidence?

SIR HUGH ORDE:

No, I do not think that. I think the public will judge us on how we deliver frontline police service day in and day out. And speaking to a chief officer only yesterday, still crime is falling, confidence in policing continues to be … We must not be complacent, but let's not create a crisis that currently does not exist.

JAMES LANDALE:

But do you not need to see the people who … the policemen who have done wrong here charged, convicted and go to jail to convince people of your argument that the wider force is fine, there is no endemic corruption here?

SIR HUGH ORDE:

Without question. I have zero tolerance of any officer that steps outside that line regardless of their rank or whether they're a sworn officer or indeed a member of support staff supporting policing. There is a zero tolerance of that, and this inquiry or one of the many inquiries will look precisely at that. And I think that when we look at that inquiry and we see what the findings are …

JAMES LANDALE:

(over) But it needs some prosecution. Is it feasible we're going to see them?

SIR HUGH ORDE:

Well I think this inquiry will pursue that to the ends of the world, absolutely. Every police officer patrolling the streets this morning expects any corrupt officer that lets the side down, that does huge damage to policing to be locked up and the key thrown away.

JAMES LANDALE:

This week we've had the first estimates of how many police numbers are going to be cut - substantial numbers across the piece. The government says it's necessary; the police simply have to do things more efficiently.

SIR HUGH ORDE:

Indeed and we are doing our level best to be as efficient as we can be. Her Majesty's Inspector raised a report only this week that said despite the 20 per cent cuts, we have managed to maintain frontline service delivery by doing things in different ways. My personal view is we do need to look more widely at policing through some form of commission because we are currently delivering against 21st century threats with a 20th century model. Forty-four forces currently is simply too many to deal with the sorts of threats you're seeing unfolding in the world today.

JAMES LANDALE:

Sir Hugh Orde, thank you very much indeed for coming in this morning.

SIR HUGH ORDE:

Thank you.

INTERVIEW ENDS

INTERVIEW ENDS

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