PLEASE NOTE "THE ANDREW MARR SHOW" MUST BE CREDITED IF ANY PART OF THIS TRANSCRIPT IS USED Andrew Marr interviewed Energy Secretary, Chris Huhne on Sunday July 10th 2011. ANDREW MARR: As you cannot fail to be aware, energy bills are going up by as much as 18% in the latest increase announced by British Gas last week. Energy companies say that rising wholesale prices are to blame, but it's also claimed hidden green charges are helping to push up the cost. Well I'm joined now by the Energy Secretary Chris Huhne who's been in the newspapers for all sorts of reasons, as we were mentioning. Let's start. One of the things that you were involved in in your last job as it were, when you were Home Affairs Spokesman, was the Andy Coulson business, and you said some extremely robust things about the danger of bringing Andy Coulson into the No. 10 operation. Can I ask once you had joined the coalition whether you raised any of that with the Prime Minister yourself? CHRIS HUHNE: I certainly raised it with Nick, and Nick raised it with the Prime Minister, and it was very clear and it was made very clear to us that this was a personal appointment of the Prime Minister. It wasn't a government appointment and, therefore, we didn't have any standing to object to it. But it was very clear from what I had said previously that I think … you know that big reputational risks were being run. ANDREW MARR: So given what you were saying, what Lord Ashdown (we read this morning) was saying, what Alan Rusbridger of the Guardian was saying to him directly, what does it say about the Prime Minister's judgement, do you think? CHRIS HUHNE: Well the Prime Minister has said that he wanted to give Andy Coulson a second chance, and that's a very commendable thing to do in life. The reality is that there were very serious risks being run there. We knew with Andy Coulson anybody in charge of a newspaper needs to know what's going on, and at the very least either Andy Coulson was complicit in criminal acts or alternatively he was a very incompetent editor by the standards of Fleet Street. ANDREW MARR: So given that, it was a very strange thing presumably in your view for the Prime Minister to give him that second chance? CHRIS HUHNE: Well I think the truth is that both Labour and the Conservatives over many years have had an extremely cosy relationship with the Murdoch press, and hiring Coulson in the first place was seen as a way into getting a relationship with the Murdoch press. And after all the Murdoch press did back the Conservatives very vigorously during the General Election campaign. ANDREW MARR: Do you think there was something seamy? I'm trying to … I was going to say corrupt, but that's going too strong. Something sticky and unpleasant about that relationship? CHRIS HUHNE: I certainly don't think that it is healthy when one particular newspaper proprietor, who happens to be the biggest newspaper proprietor in the country and has a very substantial share of a media organisation in the form of BSkyB, I don't think it's healthy when politicians take that sort of attitude towards him. We had from Tony Blair who flew … ANDREW MARR: (over) Certainly. CHRIS HUHNE: … right the way across the world to pay court to Rupert Murdoch, and we had it again from David Cameron, and I think that we need to try and move to a healthier relationship between the media and the political class. ANDREW MARR: There's a vote coming up in the House of Commons this week suggesting that the BSkyB takeover should be delayed until after the criminal investigation is over because it involves the fit and proper person part of the takeover law for broadcasting. Do you agree that should happen, there should be a delay? CHRIS HUHNE: Well I think we'll obviously have to look at the details of the motion before deciding what should be done in terms of the voting, but there are two separate processes here. One is that Ofcom can at any time investigate whether the people running one of our broadcast organisations are fit and proper people, and that's not associated with the question of clearing the merger. And indeed there have been … ANDREW MARR: (over) And in your view should have been done? CHRIS HUHNE: Well my colleague Simon Hughes has already asked Ofcom to look at that and has had preliminary replies. And I think clearly it is relevant to that issue because we need to know and I believe we should have a personal assurance from Rupert Murdoch, for example, that these practices, these illegal practices didn't merely take place on … you know were confined to News of the World. ANDREW MARR: You think other newspapers were involved as well? CHRIS HUHNE: Well there are rumours at the moment that there are civil actions against the Sun. There have been rumours even that the Sunday Times may be involved in this. And I think we should have a clear assurance from Rupert Murdoch that he believes that none of his other titles have been involved in these activities because clearly if this is very widespread through News Corp, then that is very relevant to the issue of a fit and proper person running a broadcasting organisation. ANDREW MARR: So putting the vote in the Commons to one side, do you think it would be right and proper to go ahead with the takeover in the next few weeks while all of this is still up in the air? CHRIS HUHNE: Well my understanding is that there's been such an enormous response to the consultation that Jeremy Hunt has put out there, that I suspect it will take a considerable time to understand exactly what all the people who've responded to that consultation are saying. But the key test for Jeremy Hunt and the way that that procedure has run is about media plurality … ANDREW MARR: Yeah, sure. CHRIS HUHNE: … in other words about the extent to which the media are diverse. And there is a very important issue there because I think it is crucial that the press in particular, but all press and broadcast are diverse, that we are genuinely a liberal democracy with a lot of different voices. ANDREW MARR: Well it will be a very interesting test next week for Liberal Democrat MPs which way they go on this, I suspect. Can I ask about … You've had - we mentioned it earlier on - some troubles yourself in the press. Is the Mail on Sunday story broadly true? CHRIS HUHNE: Look, the Mail on Sunday story has taken things completely out of context. I welcome the fact that there is a police inquiry because it will stop rubbish stories appearing in Tory newspapers and it will get to the bottom of this and draw a line under it, and that's what I intend to wait and see the results of. ANDREW MARR: Indeed. Can I just ask the obvious and direct question: did you ask anybody else to take driving points? CHRIS HUHNE: I've repeatedly denied these allegations and I absolutely stick to that. ANDREW MARR: Alright. Let's turn to your day job, if I can put it that way, which is becoming more and more embroiled in a very, very difficult question of shooting up energy prices - not just rising; accelerating enormously. Eighteen per cent British Gas. We already have a lot of people in this country, particularly pensioners, who are having real difficulties in heating their houses and paying their electricity bills. Is there nothing direct that you can do about this? CHRIS HUHNE: Well we are doing quite a lot. For the most vulnerable households like pensioners, for example, we're putting the current discount schemes, which are voluntary for the Big Six, on a statutory basis, and that means that pensioners will be able to get a £120 discount, 800,000 pensioners substantially more as well. Essentially we're raising the amount of public money going to help the most vulnerable, people in fuel poverty, by two-thirds, a 67% increase on what has happened before. But the key point here is that this is just sticking plaster. Time again we've heard energy secretaries saying we're going to help the fuel poor, but we've got to get to the roots of the problem and that means actually tackling the inefficient, wasteful homes that we have. And that's what we're doing, starting next year with the Green Deal. We're going to have a big insulation programme which will massively save not just pensioners' bills, but right the way across the country. ANDREW MARR: (over) But the real … Yeah, but the real root of the problem are these rocketing prices. I mean 18%. That can be … CHRIS HUHNE: (over) But there's one thing, there's one thing that a British energy secretary cannot do and that is control events in the Middle East. If we want, if we want to get out from under the volatility of these world markets, the best way we can do it is to save energy, make our bills much less sensitive to world market prices and get on in the long-term - which is a long-term job - get onto clean, secure, green energy sources which don't bounce around with world oil and gas prices. ANDREW MARR: But to do that, you are putting a huge subsidy into wind farms which are … you know they're not even built here. I mean all the technology coming over is German. CHRIS HUHNE: No this is nonsense. I mean there is stuff in the papers today and over the last couple of days which is just arithmetically wrong. ANDREW MARR: (over) Well it's 3% at the moment … CHRIS HUHNE: … arithmetically wrong. I mean the claims of very large amounts on people's bills are absolute nonsense. The reality is Ofgem, not the department - this is an independent organisation - estimates about 10% as a result of environmental levies designed, for example, to encourage energy saving. Now what it doesn't do is take account of the impact of that energy saving. That's the effect on gas and electricity prices, but once you take the effect on bills you actually find that we're getting overall bill … ANDREW MARR: (over) Well is … CHRIS HUHNE: … you know down in the long-run and that's crucial. ANDREW MARR: Well you know you have put a huge amount of focus on the need for greener energy, and to get that you have had to put in what is in effect a green tax. It's a carbon floor, but it's in effect a green tax. And at the same time in effect you are going to be subsidising nuclear energy, which you always used to say was … CHRIS HUHNE: (over) No, no, we're not. We're not subsidising nuclear. ANDREW MARR: So there'll be no help for nuclear energy in terms of its price, the price it can charge? CHRIS HUHNE: (over) The reality is we have the EU's Emissions Trading Scheme and we have the carbon price floor support because we don't think that the EU Emissions Trading Scheme is adequate. That helps any low carbon generation against carbon generation. ANDREW MARR: (over) So why … CHRIS HUHNE: (over) But there is no support. There is no … ANDREW MARR: (over) If it's all EU, why are we going to have the highest prices in Europe then? CHRIS HUHNE: We're not going to have the highest prices. That's absolute nonsense. We have some of the lowest prices in Europe. And indeed if we had more reli… That is absolute nonsense, that story. ANDREW MARR: Well there are some fairly senior analysts who are taking it very seriously who say that quite shortly we'll have some of the highest prices in Europe. CHRIS HUHNE: These are extraordinarily rubbish calculations, which I'm very happy to sit down with our chief economist and go through why they've got that wrong. The reality is we have some of the lowest energy prices in Europe. We could get them even lower. The country with the lowest energy prices in Europe at the moment happens to be France because it doesn't rely on oil and gas from a very volatile part of the world. Over 80% is coming from renewables and from nuclear. And in doing that, they have energy bills which are nearly 10%, electricity bills which are 10% lower than ours, and the recent increase in electricity in France … ANDREW MARR: Okay … CHRIS HUHNE: … is just 3% compared with the 18% which we're getting from British Gas. So if we want to get off the vulnerability which we've got to these world markets ANDREW MARR: (over) We have to build nuclear power stations. CHRIS HUHNE: (over) … we've got to move to low carbon sources. And we're not saying one type of low carbon or another but we've got to get off that oil and gas fuel hook. ANDREW MARR: So what is your direct message to all of those people anguished and outraged when they see they're going to have to be paying 18% more for their gas? CHRIS HUHNE: In the short-run - because we've talked about the long-run - in the short-run what we're trying to do is to encourage new entrants into the market, more competition. And it is actually true … Go on some of the switch websites and see how much you can save. Ofgem calculated that if you simply switched to the cheapest rate at the beginning of last year, people could save up to £200 on their energy bills. Switching is a really effective means of the consumer taking some power. And we've also introduced, since the government came in, a new assurance that people have to be given 30 days notice before the companies put up their prices. ANDREW MARR: Alright. CHRIS HUHNE: In the old days, they were able to put up their prices and tell you afterwards. ANDREW MARR: And just quick… CHRIS HUHNE: So I want to see them actually take proper control over the price level. ANDREW MARR: Alright. And, briefly, Germany has put a complete hold on its nuclear programme after the Japanese disaster. You have no second thoughts about pressing ahead so vigorously for nuclear power in this country? CHRIS HUHNE: Well we asked the Chief Nuclear Inspector, Mike Weightman, who's a very distinguished figure in this whole field, to look at the lessons from Fukushima and he concluded in his interim report that there were no consequences given that the earthquake in Japan was 65,000 times stronger than the biggest earthquake we've ever suffered in the UK area. ANDREW MARR: And you used to call this "failed technology", but you've changed your mind? CHRIS HUHNE: Well the reality is if investors … The key point here is subsidy. If we are not going to provide subsidy to nuclear, if investors want to go ahead and do that, then I believe it should be part of our energy mix. And that's the key thing. Investors are telling us that they're prepared to do that if it's renewables, if it's nuclear or if it's fossil fuels, coal and gas with carbon capture and storage. Any of those, plus energy saving, are the right way to assure that we have low cost affordable electricity for the future. ANDREW MARR: Chris Huhne, thank you very much indeed. INTERVIEW ENDS INTERVIEW ENDS
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