Transcript of Chris Patten interview

PLEASE NOTE "THE ANDREW MARR SHOW" MUST BE CREDITED IF ANY PART OF THIS TRANSCRIPT IS USED

Andrew Marr interviewed Chris Patten, Chairman of the BBC Trust on Sunday July 3rd 2011.

ANDREW MARR:

Now Chris Patten, Lord Patten, was a cabinet minister under Margaret Thatcher; Tory Party Chairman under John Major; the last Governor of Hong Kong; European Commissioner and Chancellor of Oxford. And now he has just taken over as Chairman of the BBC Trust. Well the BBC is not quite as embattled an enclave of Britishness as Hong Kong was. Nor, of course, is Rupert Murdoch's empire anything like Communist China. But with swingeing cuts - the largest in the corporation's history - and constant criticism from its foes, the BBC does feel just slightly besieged by now. Chris Patten, welcome.

LORD PATTEN:

Nice to be here.

ANDREW MARR:

Your new job, Chairman of the Trust, some people are a little concerned, confused about exactly what it means - whether you are first and foremost the sort of cheerleader and spokesman for the BBC out there in the country; or first and foremost the sort of stern invigilator of BBC misbehaviour, people like myself. I mean how would you characterise the balance?

LORD PATTEN:

Well get away from the sort of anorak language, the management goulash.

ANDREW MARR:

Yeah.

LORD PATTEN:

I think my job as Chairman of the Trust, as Chairman of the BBC Trust is to ensure that the BBC goes on producing fantastic radio and television programmes, goes on justifying its reputation as not just the best public service broadcaster in the world but probably the best broadcaster in the world. And you've only got to go to any other country and turn on the radio and television to realise how good the BBC is. Not perfect. And the challenge for the BBC is what's going on in the background - the digital revolution to use what Ernie Bevin used to call a "clitch" (Marr laughs) - and the fact that it's got to learn to live with a flat budget.

ANDREW MARR:

Yes.

LORD PATTEN:

It's got to take out a lot of costs because, for the first time in living memory, we haven't had an increase in the licence fee. And I don't grumble about that - everybody's having to pull in their belts, and I hope we can pull in ours while producing higher quality programmes still.

ANDREW MARR:

Now that is going to mean, because of all the other things the BBC is also going to have to do …

LORD PATTEN:

Yuh …

ANDREW MARR:

… sort of 17% to 20% cuts across the board. The great debate seems to be about whether those cuts can be sort of salami sliced away from budgets, pumiced away from things being done at the moment, or whether part of the BBC empire has to be frankly surrendered - the BBC has to give up a channel or two or a station or two or whatever and pull back a little bit. Where on that spectrum do you stand?

LORD PATTEN:

Well there's, as Mr Berlusconi would I'm sure confirm, there's nothing necessarily wrong with salami slicing provided you end up with the sausage you wanted. And what we're looking at at the moment - sorry to abuse that metaphor - what we're looking at at the moment is how much we can get through greater efficiency, through greater productivity, and how much will involve us stopping doing things which we'd like to do but are probably expendable. Now we're quite far advanced in that process at the moment. I would like ideally to be able to settle it this month. I think it may be more realistic that we can't actually come to an agreement with the executive until September. But we'll do it as soon as we can and then we'll go out and consult on the proposals.

ANDREW MARR:

Sure. But I mean, for instance, I think you've talked to Jeremy Hunt about speeding up the process by which the BBC could close a channel. So the possibility of closing a channel or getting rid of something the BBC does now perhaps online, that is … that's a possibility?

LORD PATTEN:

Well we have to look at … we have to look at everything. But the trouble is about this process, that as soon as you deal with specifics - either confirming that they're fine or not confirming that they're fine - you're appearing to make a public decision about them. So it's quite difficult. And looking at the relationship between the main television channels, I think we can see symmetries that we could perhaps organise rather better.

ANDREW MARR:

Things like people have talked about just putting News 24 onto BBC2 during the day; that we are filling huge numbers of hours of television time at the moment?

LORD PATTEN:

Yeah, at night as well, and there are a lot of decisions which or a lot of ideas which have already been discussed about that. But at the end of the day, as bishops say, I think we should be able to come off with a very good public service broadcaster for three and a half billion, which one has to remember is given to us …

ANDREW MARR:

Yes.

LORD PATTEN:

… - we don't have to thrash up and down the high street raising advertising revenue.

ANDREW MARR:

Do you think, nonetheless, that there are some big things we're doing at the moment - whether it might be the amount of money being spent on sport, Formula One or whatever it might be, or channel, that in the end the BBC won't be doing?

LORD PATTEN:

I think there are some things which it will be very difficult for us to do in the medium and long-term - partly because of the wall of cash which is there from Pay TV, from subscription television. Now I don't grumble about competition, but the fact of the matter is if you look at America, if you look elsewhere, broadcasters, advertising revenue broadcasters or public service broadcasters are being driven out of a lot of large sporting events because of the amount of cash which subscription TV has, and you know there are consequences of that.

ANDREW MARR:

Talking about large amounts of cash, what's your take on the storm of criticism about BBC pay - presenters certainly but also BBC managers? Do you think that … I mean I know there's been a lot of cutbacks already and they're trimming and so on, but do you think there are still too many managers being paid too much?

LORD PATTEN:

Yeah. I think there are three aspects to it. First of all, there's the overall BBC pay, and BBC pay overall has been slightly behind the public sector for the last two or three years. This year it's slightly behind Channel Four, ITV. There is secondly the question of talent pay, which is certainly going down - partly for reasons which don't have anything to do with better management …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) Market.

LORD PATTEN:

… but partly to do with the management, and we need to be more open not about individuals but about how much is being paid to people overall. As I say, that's falling. I think the biggest issue for the public is senior executive pay because what's happened does seem to fly in the face of public service ethos, and there are four aspects which we'll be making announcements about in the next few days. First of all, there is the pay level at the very top. Secondly, there's the number of people who got more than £150,000. Thirdly, there's the number of people who are deemed to be senior managers. And, fourthly, there is the whole issue of fairness across the board with senior managers getting some deals which don't apply to others. And I think we can deal with all that; and if we do so, we'll deal with one of the most toxic reasons for the public's lack of sympathy for the BBC as an institution even though they like enormously what it does.

ANDREW MARR:

It sounds to me like you're thinking of something pretty radical in terms of the number of people paid more than the Prime Minister, shall we say?

LORD PATTEN:

Sure, or paid more than the Head of the British Museum to take another example. And I've been looking very closely at what Will Hutton said about top pay in the public sector. (AM speaks over/inaudible) I think he's got a lot of very good ideas.

ANDREW MARR:

This is making sure that nobody at the top is paid more I think than twenty times what the lowest person is paid was his idea?

LORD PATTEN:

Yeah, well you look at the relationship in particular between top pay and medium pay. And I would like the BBC to be the first organisation in the public sector which actually gets into implementing some of Will Hutton's ideas.

ANDREW MARR:

Some of those. That's very interesting. Can I just ask you about … We've seen the green light for News International to buy the rest of Sky.

LORD PATTEN:

(over) Sure.

ANDREW MARR:

Sky has a much bigger revenue now than the BBC. Do you think that the BBC is inevitably on a kind of downward curve in terms of its influence and past dominance in British broadcasting?

LORD PATTEN:

No, I don't. And you started off with an analogy with Hong Kong, and perhaps I could reassure people I'm not going to hand the BBC over to the Chinese in five years time. But I don't think that the BBC should think of itself as under siege from the Aryan vandals. I think it's a fantastic organisation. I want it to be more flexible, leaner - which is another cliché - and I want it to be self-confident and challenging and aware of the principles on which it was founded and which are still relevant today. I think one of the amazing things about the BBC for a public service organisation is that it is at the cutting edge of technology, and that's a tribute to John Birt among others.

ANDREW MARR:

Can I ask you about another horrible word 'universality', which is the idea the BBC has offer something to everybody. Mark Damazer, who was a very successful Controller of BBC Four, said in a speech recently that "news and current affairs were really the hinge and the heart of the BBC", and that is presumably something you'd agree with. But what about the fact the BBC ought to be doing game shows, ought to be doing pop music, ought to be doing soaps, ought to be doing literally something for everybody?

LORD PATTEN:

First of all, I agree with Mark and it was a very good speech he gave at Oxford. I agree with him about the importance of news and journalism. The BBC is I think the second largest employer of journalists after Chinese television in the world. But we also have to reach as much of the, as many of the licence fee payers as possible, but reach them with programmes which are high quality and which do not only entertain but where we can inform and educate too. People have sometimes been very critical of BBC3. I've watched in the last few weeks a couple of fantastic programmes on BBC3 - one on young offenders and another one on Afghanistan.amd they were brilliant programmes.

ANDREW MARR:

Some sighs of relief at BBC3 to hear that, I'm sure. Lord Patten, Chris Patten, thank you very much indeed for joining us.

LORD PATTEN:

Thanks very much indeed.

INTERVIEW ENDS

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