PLEASE NOTE "THE ANDREW MARR SHOW" MUST BE CREDITED IF ANY PART OF THIS TRANSCRIPT IS USED Andrew Marr interviewed Australian Foreign Secretary Kevin Rudd on June 12th 2011. ANDREW MARR: The Australian Labour Party swept to power in 2007 after many years in opposition. Kevin Rudd, the charismatic young leader, delivered an electoral victory. But within a couple of years his popularity began declining, colleagues in the party started muttering, and he was deposed and replaced by his deputy. Rather more swift and brutal than coup attempts in the Labour Party around the same time here. However, unlike Tony Blair or Gordon Brown, Kevin Rudd remains at the top of the tree. He's Australia's Foreign Minister and he's just arrived in London. Good morning and welcome. KEVIN RUDD: Good morning. ANDREW MARR: You're here for this huge conference on vaccination. People may go a bit … snore about vaccination, but this is a massive issue around the world, isn't it? This is something where millio… literally millions, possibly tens of millions of lives are hanging in the balance. KEVIN RUDD: Well I think if people are snoring, they should wake up because it's actually fundamentally important. If you're concerned about aid effectiveness, which we and the British government are, it's one of the most effective things you can do worldwide. So there's global alliance on vaccinations and immunisation; over the last decade or so, 250 million kids around the world who have been immunised; 5 million kids' lives who have been saved; vaccination rates up to about 80%. This is extraordinary work. It makes a material difference and that's why and the Brits behind it 100%. ANDREW MARR: Let's talk a little bit about the world as it seems from Australia's viewpoint. KEVIN RUDD: It's round. ANDREW MARR: It's round. KEVIN RUDD: Yeah. ANDREW MARR: It's still round. That's reassuring to know. You've got troops of course, 1500 or so in Afghanistan where you've been taking losses … KEVIN RUDD: Yes. ANDREW MARR: … in proportion as well. And there seems to be quite a sort of mood of … not a mutinous mood, but a weary mood in Australia about the Afghan War at the moment. KEVIN RUDD: Well Australia's been in Afghanistan from the get go, way back in 2001, but we have been resolute throughout and with support from both sides of Australian politics. In the last five years or thereabouts, we've been in the province of Oruzgan, wedged between Helmand on the one hand and Kandahar on the other. It's a fairly violent part of the world, it's Afghanistan's poorest province, but we intend to be resolute and to remain there until our mission is discharged. We're mindful of what Hamid Karzai has said about 2014 transition to Afghan led security. We will work within that framework and we intend to complete our mission. ANDREW MARR: Are you very worried about, nonetheless, the sort of governance issues in Kabul and the kind of fist of it that Karzai's been making of it because there have been terrible stories of the corruption and the money going missing and you know the failure to kind of extend authority much beyond Kabul? KEVIN RUDD: Let me give you an example about the province in which we have principal responsibility. As I've said, it's the country's poorest province. And so if you're going to give an insight in terms of how the country as a whole is going, I can give you generalities about the nation, generalities about Kabul. I can give you specifics on this province. I've visited it about four or five times now over the years and I've seen a year by year transition. In terms of the security hold over the province, it's now quite extensive in most of the valleys of this mountainous area. The provincial governor is rolling out an effective programme with probity standards which are highly reasonable by Afghanistan standards. We now have roads under construction, small markets emerging, schools cropping up. I opened up a mosque out there the other, the first one I've opened anywhere in the world. And I've got to say in terms of overall delivery of basic services - girls going to school, etcetera - we are seeing quite a radical transformation. So on the Richter scale of one to ten, you know we began at one. Ten's a fully functioning Westminster democracy. We're nowhere near ten. We're somewhere middling sort of sub of five, but let me tell you we're making progress. ANDREW MARR: Making progress. The trouble is of course that when the troops come out, it's a high likelihood the Taliban come back and then all those girls at school have a rather bleaker future. KEVIN RUDD: Well let me give you one example again - again provincially based. We have responsibility for the training of six to eight battalions of the 4th Brigade of the Afghan National Army in Oruzgan. We have about 1,500 Australian troops there doing a great job. We are well advanced in the training of that battalion. Similarly with the Afghan National Police. It's not perfect, but let me tell you these are becoming highly competent security forces. And we are not in the business of creating a fully functioning Westminster democracy, we're not deluded, but in terms of what's often described as "Afghanistan good enough", we are headed in that direction against most of the measures. ANDREW MARR: Let me ask you about China because that's your local superpower as it were. They've just … KEVIN RUDD: Globally heading in that direction as well. ANDREW MARR: Absolutely and they've got a great new revamped aircraft carrier which has alarmed some people in the region not a little. What's your take on … I mean this is an interesting period when the global economy is a bit ropey. Do you think that the Chinese are extending their military muscles around the Pacific and the China Sea? KEVIN RUDD: I first went to work in China way back in 1984. ANDREW MARR: I should explain to people that you're a fluent Chinese speaker and a Chinese expert. KEVIN RUDD: No, no. Yeah, well most Chinese experts are surprised every day by what they see in China … ANDREW MARR: Okay. KEVIN RUDD: … but I've been studying China since the mid-70s. So the radical transformations the world is largely familiar with: communism becoming a market economy and the radical transformation of the Chinese economy in terms of its global size. I think what we all need to prepare ourselves for is this to accelerate yet again. The Chinese at the most recent party confest have agreed on a new growth model which takes it in the direction of domestic consumption based, services industries based, as well as an increasing reliance on renewable energy. This will create an entire new engine of economic growth in China. Ninety-five, ninety-six cities in China now of populations in excess of 5 million - eight of them with populations in excess of 10 million; 50,000 skyscrapers about to go up. ANDREW MARR: Astonishing, yuh. KEVIN RUDD: So in terms of the global economic footprint, let's just say China within the next decade and a bit is likely to emerge as the world's largest economy. Obviously it's foreign policy and security policy footprint increases and that creates both challenges and opportunities for us all. ANDREW MARR: Okay. Towards the end of the year - later, in the autumn - we've got the commonwealth heads of government summit in Australia. The Queen no doubt will be there. A very emotional visit, I suspect actually that one. KEVIN RUDD: She's always very welcome in Australia and she's very well liked in Australia. ANDREW MARR: What is the sort of mood about Republicanism at the moment because I think the last polls, it seemed to have become slightly less popular than it was at the height, do you think? KEVIN RUDD: Well these things come and go. As you know, the Australian Labour Party is committed to turning the country into a republic. We've not stipulated a timeline for doing that. We are sensitive to the other priorities we've got as a nation and in the world, but in time the country will head in that direction. There is a deep affection in Australia for the Queen. And I mean the Queen's been the Queen ever since I was born. I mean she is part of the firmament of Australia's sort of national life; there's a deep respect for her role. But the country is evolving and … ANDREW MARR: So do you think perhaps Prince Charles will not be King of Australia? KEVIN RUDD: That's entirely a matter for how we go about the conduct of future referendums and when they might be conducted. But I emphasise what are our priorities now? Members of the G20 trying to make sure the global economy doesn't fall apart; developments in Europe … ANDREW MARR: (over) Other priorities. KEVIN RUDD: … making sure we're dealing effectively with what we've just talked about - rise of China. This falls somewhat down, shall I say, the totem pole of priorities. ANDREW MARR: Kevin Rudd, for now thank you very much indeed for joining us. KEVIN RUDD: Thanks for having us. INTERVIEW ENDS
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