PLEASE NOTE "THE ANDREW MARR SHOW" MUST BE CREDITED IF ANY PART OF THIS TRANSCRIPT IS USED Andrew Marr interviewed Defence Secretary Liam Fox on May 29th 2011. ANDREW MARR: Now the Prime Minister says he wants to turn up the heat on Libya and now the UK is sending in Apache attack helicopters. So is the mission entering a new phase to get rid of Colonel Gaddafi - something two months of bombing so far hasn't achieved? Libya was much discussed during President Obama's state visit, as the Ambassador reminded us, with the President sounding cautious about the limits of military action. Well the Defence Secretary Liam Fox is fresh back from his meeting with his opposite number in Washington and he's here now. Good morning. LIAM FOX: Good morning. ANDREW MARR: Let's start with the position regarding the helicopters. This is a bit of a risky decision in the sense that they are more vulnerable to handheld missiles and so on, and there are MPs saying it's an escalation, it's a further drawing into the conflict. LIAM FOX: Well, first of all, it's not an escalation. We've been using fast jets with fairly complex weapons to degrade the command and control capability of the regime, to diminish their ammunition stores, to deal with their fuel supplies and so on. Therefore using helicopters is not really an escalation of that, but it is quite right that if we use attack helicopters there is an increased risk they fly at far lower heights than the fast jets would, obviously at lower speeds than the fast jets would, and they are more susceptible. That is why in taking that decision we have looked at all the variables: the risk to our service personnel, which is always very key; but also the fact that we are making progress in Libya. It's clear that the regime is having trouble sustaining its military activity, and the more we can degrade that, the more we can protect the civilian population. What people seem to be sort of forgetting at the moment is the fact that our primary job is to protect the civilian population and Gaddafi is still attacking the civilian population, so the task remains an absolutely vital one. ANDREW MARR: I want to come back to that in a second, but was it the case that there were military worries about using these helicopters because of their vulnerability and that these were overridden by the Prime Minister because he said if the French are doing it, we'd better be doing it too? LIAM FOX: No, what happens is that when we look at the sort of capabilities we might be deploying and the assets that give a reality to those capabilities, we always assess the risk. And what would happen is that we would look at the potentials that we have, we go away and ask for a risk assessment by the military, and then it will come back and myself as Defence Secretary and the Prime Minister would have a look at them. So there's no question whatsoever of overriding military advice. ANDREW MARR: Looking at where the explosions are landing at the moment in Tripoli, it does look as if you're trying to - not you personally - but NATO is trying to get Gaddafi much more directly; that he's moving from place to place, compound to compound, and where he moves quite soon afterwards there's an attack. So getting Gaddafi physically now seems to be much higher up the list of priorities. LIAM FOX: We always made it clear that when we'd secured our objectives of preventing the humanitarian slaughter that might have happened in Benghazi and also in Misrata, that we would want to tighten our targeting on the command and control. As you very rightly point out, Andrew, he's got a lot of bunkers … ANDREW MARR: Yes. LIAM FOX: … and there are a lot of facilities which are being used partly as accommodation but also largely for military control. And we will continue to degrade that. We've made it very clear. ANDREW MARR: But you are trying to get him. I mean that's what's going on. LIAM FOX: No, we're trying degrade his ability to control his armed forces and those who are repressing the civilian population. And we've made it … Let me be very clear about this: those who use dual use facilities but are using them nonetheless to try to continue their attacks on the civilian population, they will be vulnerable if they are in those bunkers. ANDREW MARR: What about the use … He's clearly using, we read he's using places like hospitals and schools and so on where there are civilians there as well to ensure that you can't target him. LIAM FOX: One of the problems we've had from the outset - and you may call it a problem, I would say it was one of our great advantages - is the fact that we have been unwilling to see civilian casualties unnecessarily and we've therefore been targeting very precisely, using very high-end, expensive weaponry, which minimises civilian casualties. But of course you do get the regime parking their tanks or their artillery very close to hospitals, to schools, to mosques, knowing that we will want to avoid those civilian casualties. I think we're right to do this because it gives us the high moral ground and shows we've got a better regard for human life. It also keeps the coalition together. But it does make our job more difficult. ANDREW MARR: And it's taken a long time. I mean there must be general disappointment that Gaddafi hasn't gone yet and concern about how long this must go on for? LIAM FOX: Well I think there might be you know amongst the commentators, for example, disappointment that things haven't happened more quickly. From the very outset, the military have made it very clear that there's a limitation to what you can do purely with air power and that it will take time to degrade all these facilities. We require the intelligence, which mounts up over time in terms of ability to do that. And we did make … ANDREW MARR: (over) Are you sure you're going to get him in the end though? LIAM FOX: Well I think that it's inevitable when you've got the entire international community united behind you. We saw the Russians change their position subtly this week and I think it's now very clear that the international community believes that it's not possible to protect the civilian population while Gaddafi remains in control of the regime. He will go sooner or later and the calculation for those around him is how long they continue to invest in someone who will ultimately be a loser. ANDREW MARR: Now you're the military side, I understand that. But when he goes, what is the game plan then because you're going to have what is a dysfunctional, barely a state in many regards in terms of its infrastructure and its history and so on in danger of falling apart. Is there a kind of carefully thought through strategy about what happens when the fighting stops? LIAM FOX: Well naturally there's a lot of discussion amongst the allies and there will be wider discussions at the United Nations. Remember this mission came from the UN's concern about the state of Libya. ANDREW MARR: (over) Sure. Someone's going to have to go in there and sort of hold things together. LIAM FOX: And there of course will be a number of ways in which the international community might want to do that, and these are ongoing discussions. And it will need to be a Libyan solution to a Libyan problem in the end. The international community may be able to facilitate it in the way we've been trying to help in places like Egypt, talking about finance and reconstruction; but ultimately the whole aim has been not for the world to impose a view on how Libya should be governed, but allowing the Libyans the space to choose their own government. ANDREW MARR: Let me turn to the other huge issue on your plate, which is Afghanistan. The troops are coming out, starting to come out pretty soon now - July, not far off, a month away. How does that happen? I mean do you bring out sort of ancillary staff and cooks and typists and people like that to start with, or do you bring out fighting troops early on. How do you manage that? LIAM FOX: We have a core force of about 9,500 in Afghanistan. Our numbers in fact have been as high as 11,000 at times, given the changeover of staff and short-term staff being moved in for specific tasks. The Prime Minister announced to commons committee recently that we were taking out about 426 personnel at the moment, which will bring our numbers down a bit - people who are not involved in the frontline combat tasks in Southern Afghanistan - and we are able to do that. I obviously had discussions with Secretary Gates and we'll continue to have further discussions later this week about American plans as we see how quickly the Americans want to readjust their force. And remember the Americans … ANDREW MARR: Are we going to be bringing out fighters this year - I mean people who are fighting? LIAM FOX: Well in discussion with the US, we look at two things: first of all the progress we're making against the insurgency; secondly the way in which the Afghan forces are being built up, and we're currently up to 164,000 Afghan National Army and 126,000 Afghan National Police - both of which are far ahead of the targets that were set for them. We're also seeing improved security conditions on the ground and that gives us an ability to shift personnel. However, we are in the most difficult part of Afghanistan and what we cannot do is to see a reduction in our combat troops until we are sure that we've got the security correct. ANDREW MARR: So this business of starting to pull out from July and everybody out by 2014 - that's an aspiration, that's a hope, that's not necessarily something that you'll be able to do? LIAM FOX: Well the Americans have made very clear that they're going to take the surge out - presumably by the end of 2012, something like that. Those are the extra troops that they put in. ANDREW MARR: Sure, but I'm talking about our troops. LIAM FOX: And our troops, we will obviously want to follow along with what the United States are doing. We're working in partnership through ISAF. We've made it very clear that we want our combat troops out by 2014. We may continue with a training presence, with a mentoring presence in Afghanistan after that, but the combat mission has to end not least because President Karzai has said "I want my country and its security to be guaranteed by Afghan forces". We have to respect that. That's what we're there for. ANDREW MARR: And so if at that point the Taliban are moving back into Southern Afghanistan - as a lot of people think will happen - we leave anyway? LIAM FOX: Well I'm not sure that that is an accurate picture because in a lot of ways if you look … ANDREW MARR: Well neither of us know what will happen in 2014. LIAM FOX: Well but if you look at what's happening at the moment and if you look at towns like Lashkar Gar right in the centre of Helmand - if you went there a year ago, you would be in body armour, armoured cars. It's now in phase one of the transition process. You can drive around now relatively easily inside Lashkar Gar. The security … ANDREW MARR: (over) We still lose a lot of troops, it's still very violent, it's still very difficult. LIAM FOX: It is still very violent and we have been increasingly taking space from the Taliban. Of course they're going to resist when we do that. This measure that there's increased violence does not indicate that in any way we are losing in this conflict. ANDREW MARR: Does it not? LIAM FOX: In many ways it suggests that we are actually taking more and more territory. They're resisting and there's fighting for that space. That is exactly what the military would tell you is to be expected. ANDREW MARR: It sounds to me very much as if we're not going to be pulling out fighting troops this year in any numbers. LIAM FOX: Well again it's conditions based. President Obama made very clear that the American drawdown … ANDREW MARR: (over) Given where we are now? LIAM FOX: Well it will be based on the conditions. As I said, if we're finding that we are getting improved security, if we can find that the Afghan National Army is able to come into the space and manage the security that we've got the coalition, the ISAF coalition holding together with other forces, then we've got a number of different options. ANDREW MARR: I mean you know we've heard this story that things are getting better, things are getting better for some now. The head of the police in the North was killed in a suicide bomb only yesterday or the day before; more British troops killed yesterday. A lot of people say well you know it comes and goes like the tide, but overall the security situation remains very, very difficult and dangerous indeed. LIAM FOX: It remains difficult and it remains dangerous, but there is no doubt that on the ground it's improving. And if you … ANDREW MARR: You really think so? LIAM FOX: Yes, I do. And I've been there to see it and I've been places where previously you couldn't go out at all now have markets operating quite openly. And what we find is when we open up transport routes, when we give the civilian population the confidence that we will help protect them, we get better intelligence about the threats and we're able better to deal with it - of course the Taliban are going to put up resistance, but increasingly it's the government of Afghanistan winning the space. ANDREW MARR: The Americans are talking to the Taliban at different levels, we're talking to the Taliban at different levels. Do you have any sense, any confidence at this stage that there is a genuine conversation - serious, proper, useful conversation to be had with the Taliban? LIAM FOX: Well there's a conversation. Whether that's the same as a negotiation is a different matter. What I think is happening at the moment is that there are elements who are beginning to question whether the Taliban insurgency can continue and can be successful. This is going to I think reach its peak over the summer months this year for this reason: that the Taliban's number one propaganda weapon was always that the West, the international community will go home in the middle of 2011 when it becomes very clear that not only do we have a continuing international presence but we are training up the Afghan forces to be able to take over when we leave. I think that changes psychologically the balance and I think that's the time to be pushing reconciliation and reintegration in Afghanistan. ANDREW MARR: Let me ask you about defence procurement at home. You were cutting up steel for an aircraft carrier last week in Govan, but this is an aircraft carrier which may never be used by us, may never have any aircraft on top of it. How serious is the defence procurement disaster and what are you going to do about it? LIAM FOX: Well, as you know, when we came to office we inherited a programme that was £38 billion overcommitted between now and 2020. We had the defence review, we had the spending review to try to bring the budget better into balance. We also had a number of other things to do. Number one was get real time control of the budget, and I brought in new controls that ensure that we don't get to programmes being way ahead of budget and way ahead of time. Lord Levene came in through the Defence Reform Unit to help look at how we run the MOD, and of course Bernard Gray's now got a new procurement strategy to make sure we get better value for money and better accountability. What we need to be able to do is get better control at the centre of the big projects and control costs, but also give better devolution and better accountability to those really running our projects. ANDREW MARR: Yes. A couple of your most sensitive and private letters to the Prime Minister have been leaked to the press and he's clearly very angry about this and worrying about what's going on. I read that you think a cabinet colleague may be responsible. LIAM FOX: Well you never know, and that's the whole thing with leaks. First of all they're unprofessional and they're unethical, and in being unwilling to stand up and argue the case publicly they're also cowardly. It's a culture I think that's emerged in recent years, which is hugely regrettable. If we have … ANDREW MARR: (over) Is it an attempt to attack you personally, politically, do you think? LIAM FOX: I've no idea because I've no idea who leaks; therefore I have no idea what their motivations may be. It has two implications, however. One is that it will make us less likely to put things on paper and therefore there is less transparency rather than more, which I think is an ethical problem in the longer term. It also means that we are far more likely to discuss things face to face without necessarily other advisers being there. ANDREW MARR: (over) Wandering around in the park. LIAM FOX: And I'm not sure that this is an advantage in the culture of government. It's hugely regrettable and I wish there were ways that we could find to stop it. We are, however, investigating very much at the present time and we have a number of potential court cases coming as a consequence. ANDREW MARR: Let me ask you about one other defence related thing, which is the story that British forces or British service people have been training up the Saudi National Guard who have been used to repress parts of the Arab Spring, notably in Bahrain. LIAM FOX: Where do I begin? There's about four parts of that. ANDREW MARR: Is it true? LIAM FOX: First of all we train a lot of other forces in things like communication bomb disposal … ANDREW MARR: (over) Including the Saudis. LIAM FOX: … including the Saudis who are a major strategic partner, a major partner in the battle against terrorism. But, secondly, although elements of the Saudi National Guard have been used in Bahrain, there is absolutely no evidence that they've been used for anything other than the protection of infrastructure. ANDREW MARR: One final question. Health much in the papers today. Are the Liberal Democrats now pretty much running this strategy and are we going to have a rewriting, a serious rewriting of the government's health plans in the House of Commons? LIAM FOX: We said that we would have a rethink. That's obviously happening. It's sort of ironic, isn't it … ANDREW MARR: (over) Dramatic rethink. LIAM FOX: … that the last government, the previous government were criticised that their consultations weren't really consultations; now we're being criticised because it is really a consultation? We have very clear common aims. That we need to get the outcomes of the NHS up, we have to get better health outcomes in this country for the money we spend. We also have to ensure that more decisions are taken by doctors and nurses and health professionals and fewer bureaucrats. The question is how do we do that, not whether we have to do it or not. ANDREW MARR: There are red lines, however. You're not going to tear up the entire plan. LIAM FOX: We are very committed to the NHS. We want it free at the point of use, but we want it to deliver better for patients. And we think that health professionals are better at making the decisions on behalf of patients than untrained bureaucrats are. ANDREW MARR: Dr Liam Fox, I should say, thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning. LIAM FOX: Thanks. INTERVIEW ENDS
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