Transcript of Douglas Alexander interview

PLEASE NOTE "THE ANDREW MARR SHOW" MUST BE CREDITED IF ANY PART OF THIS TRANSCRIPT IS USED

On Sunday 1st May Andrew Marr interviewed Shadow Foreign Secretary, Douglas Alexander MP

ANDREW MARR:

It's not all of course domestic politics in the news just now. Libya and Syria still dominate the international headlines. As we heard in the news, there have been more NATO raids overnight and unconfirmed reports that Colonel Gaddafi's youngest son and his family have been killed in a NATO air strike. Douglas Alexander is the Shadow Foreign Secretary who's been calling for a clearer NATO strategy. Welcome.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Good morning.

ANDREW MARR:

We'll talk about AV and domestic politics in a moment. But first of all, do you think it would be acceptable for NATO to target the Gaddafi family to bring the crisis to an end?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Our position is the position of General Sir David Richards, the Head of the British Army, who say it would be illegal to target Gaddafi as an individual or other individuals in that capacity, but it would be entirely acceptable to degrade the command and control structure of the Libyan regime that continues to threaten the Libyan population.

ANDREW MARR:

But what we have here is the family living and indeed are in many ways the command and control structure. The two things are the same. And there is an interesting moral question here, presumably, whether it would be better to kill the Gaddafis and thereby save the lives of all the people who carry on fighting up and down Libya or whether to hold back because that's assassination and we're not allowed to do it?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

But there is a straightforward way through that dilemma, which is for all of the people within the Gaddafi regime to resist the threat to the Libyan people that they continue to perpetrate. They are at the moment overseeing a grave threat to the people of Misrata, to Benghazi. That is why it is important that there are continued military steps taken along with non-military steps.

ANDREW MARR:

But they presumably feel there is no way out for them. Yet again last night Colonel Gaddafi was calling for a ceasefire and talks, and yet again was ignored. When you say there should be a clearer strategy, does any element of the strategy that you want involve allowing a ceasefire and talking to the Gaddafis?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Well first of all, why do we need a clearer strategy? Essentially, thanks to the efforts of the allies, it appears that Gaddafi is no longer strong enough to take Benghazi, but equally the rebels don't appear strong enough to take Tripoli. That is why it's important that there is sustained military pressure to protect the Libyan people, but at the same time further efforts diplomatically to ensure that we deepen the isolation of the regime. The position that Labour has adopted - and this is pretty straightforward - we support the mission, but we are serious in our responsibility to scrutinise the government. That's why I think the government needs to do more rather than the rather ad hoc series of announcements we've had in recent days.

ANDREW MARR:

Would it be an acceptable unhappy but least bad option if the country was effectively partitioned for a while?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

I don't think anybody wants stalemate. What we …

ANDREW MARR:

No-one wants it, but I'm saying that may be where we end up.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Well it is difficult at the moment to conceive of circumstances where Gaddafi is good to his word. He's already broken two self-declared ceasefires. That's why this is a regime that we believe should be judged on its deeds rather than on its words.

ANDREW MARR:

And what about arming the rebels because that's the other big issue, I suppose, for the outside world?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Well there's two issues there: there's a legality issue and an advisability issue. We've urged the government as recently as last week in the House of Commons to update the summary legal advice that was provided at the time of the vote, but it's not simply a legal question. I personally am unconvinced that we know enough about the rebels to justify the provision of arms. And if we look at the experience in Afghanistan, ten years on from military intervention in Afghanistan it's a difficult job equipping, arming and training people to be able to fight on their own behalf.

ANDREW MARR:

Sure. There are various pundits and pollsters crawling over the local elections saying that you need to win at least a thousand seats to show that you're back in the game. Is that a reasonable target for you?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Well let's have the match before we have the post-match analysis, shall we? Our sense is we're doing well. We're optimistic, partly because we're meeting a lot of Liberal Democrat voters who feel they were sold a false prospectus at the last election and are genuinely disillusioned and dismayed. We're also meeting some Conservatives, I have to say, who even if they are sticking with the Conservatives are deeply concerned about the radical changes in the NHS and the kind of steps that are being taken in the economy. So I hope that we can see gains in every part of the country.

ANDREW MARR:

Why is it that your party is so divided straight down the middle over AV? I think by some counts there are more Labour MPs against changing the voting system than there are in favour.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Well, Andrew, you're a historian as well as a journalist. I think Labour has been divided on the issue of electoral system since the Labour Representation Committee and Keir Hardie. The fact is we've been able to have disagreements without being disagreeable - partly because we've been working together to get Labour councillors elected on Thursday, and after this result we'll be working together to get Labour re-elected.

ANDREW MARR:

And nonetheless getting that message over has been difficult, partly because the party has been so divided. What are the electoral consequences for the Labour Party if the number of seats in the Commons - as is going to happen - are reduced by about 150 or so and the boundaries are changed and you don't get AV?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Well I think it was shameful partisanship on the part of the Conservatives and the Liberals to work together to try and drive through a system of equalisation of seats - a principle that I support - while ignoring the millions of people who are presently not on the register. It exposed a very base attitude to politics.

ANDREW MARR:

But this is going to greatly increase Labour's problems coming back at the next election, isn't it, what's going on at the moment?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Well, listen, I think it will take …

ANDREW MARR:

You are looking at a real crisis.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

… it will take more than a change in the electoral system I think to help Nick Clegg hang on or indeed David Cameron. But I think there was another fundamental error made by the coalition, which was Nick Clegg acceding to David Cameron's demand to have this referendum on the same day as important local elections and national elections as well. I think that means most people are seeing AV through the prism of the impact on the coalition when actually this decision stands on its own merits. I think Labour is in the position where whatever the result of the AV referendum, it's bad for one part or the other of the coalition. I hope that people will choose to vote for what I think is a small but significant improvement in our voting system.

ANDREW MARR:

You were a close ally of Gordon Brown and served through the Blair years as well. Do you think it was a mistake that neither of them were invited to the Royal wedding?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Listen, I was a little surprised, but ultimately Friday was about William and Kate. It wasn't about Tony and Gordon. I think it was a wonderful national celebration.

ANDREW MARR:

A happier story, it could be said.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Perhaps. I certainly wouldn't have wanted to see them fighting over the single seat left by the Syrian Ambassador. In all seriousness, this wasn't about politicians. It was about two young people in love. It was a wonderful national celebration. I think it was a great day for Britain.

ANDREW MARR:

Two young people not in love, the Prime Minister and Nick Clegg. You've seen the battle of words over AV. What do you think that portends for the future of their relationship?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Well I think it's a pretty synthetic disagreement. I mean the Liberal Democrat strategy …

ANDREW MARR:

Oh right, you think they don't really mean it?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Well I think the Liberal Democrat strategy, as far as I can tell, is private obedience and public disagreement. And actually the difficulty for somebody like Chris Huhne, who wrote this morning that he was part of the Centre Left tradition, is he's locked himself into a Centre Right government. The language, the logic, the destination of this government is actually to take Britain in the direction of the Centre Right. That's why I think so many Liberal Democrat voters feel so betrayed, disillusioned and disappointed by what Nick Clegg's done.

ANDREW MARR:

Alright, Douglas Alexander, thank you very much for joining us this morning.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Thank you.

INTERVIEW ENDS

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