Transcript of William Hague interview

PLEASE NOTE "THE ANDREW MARR SHOW" MUST BE CREDITED IF ANY PART OF THIS TRANSCRIPT IS USED

On Sunday 24th April Andrew Marr interviewed Foreign Secretary William Hague MP

ANDREW MARR:

Well the AV referendum campaign is certainly hotting up. We heard some strong stuff from the Liberal Democrat Deputy Leader Simon Hughes earlier in the show, and I'm joined now by the Foreign Secretary William Hague. We'll be talking about the very pressing issues of Libya and Syria later, but let me start with that. How do you react to your party being described as "liars" and "smearers" by people you're supposed to be in coalition government with?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Well we're used in general election campaigns to accusations flying backwards and forwards, and I think actually a lot of these accusations are directed at the No campaign rather than the Conservatives. Remember the No campaign is Conservative people, Labour people, people of no party. So these things do get bandied about in a referendum campaign, feelings run high, people get excited. I think the important thing for people to know is that what's really going on at the same time, in my experience of meetings with Nick Clegg and David Cameron last week, is the coalition is working well together, it continues to work well together.

ANDREW MARR:

Is this all for show? It's just a bit of election fun, is it?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Well it's not fun. This is a very important issue and I feel very strongly that people should vote no on 5th May. You know you can argue for a decisive electoral system, which we have most of the time in this country; or you can argue for a proportional system, as they have in Germany.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) Which ends up with coalition governments.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

In my view what you can't argue for is a system that is neither decisive nor proportional and can be indecisive and disproportionate at the same time. So yes we all have strong feelings about it and I very much hope people will vote no, but at the end of it the coalition will be working very well together as it is on all the other issues at the moment.

ANDREW MARR:

So what about the accusation that Baroness Warsi, you know the chairman of your party, has actually been telling untruths about the cost of going to AV; that she has been in effect lying to the country? That's what Simon Hughes was saying.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Well it does cost more. There is no doubt that having a more complicated system costs more. That is a legitimate issue to raise in such a campaign. And Simon was taking her to task earlier on your programme for saying that that the BNP would be helped in various ways by changing to an alternative vote system, but I think she's right about that because what do you do in a system where there are third and fourth preferences? Well the candidates in marginal seats have to think about how they're going to get the second, third and fourth preferences of people who voted for the British National Party. So actually these things, therefore, are not disputed facts. They're matters of opinion about what the implications would be of AV and they should be understood as that.

ANDREW MARR:

Are you part of a nasty right wing clique whose death rattle the Deputy Prime Minister urgently desires? And how will you deal with him the next time you see him?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

I'm not, nor is anybody I know in government part of a nasty right wing clique. But how will we deal together? In the same way we do now. As I say, during this we are meeting. We meet every day in the week on the Libya situation. We're all meeting, we're all working extremely constructively together.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) So you don't think Liberal Democrat unhappiness is reaching a breaking point?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

No. No, absolutely not. And remember that a year ago, Andrew, after a whole general election campaign opposing each other, indeed a whole lifetime opposing each other, within five days we managed to find a way of working together in the national interest to rescue this country after the thirteen years of Labour government. And so surely after one referendum, on which admittedly we disagree, it is much easier than it was last year to make sure that our government is working together properly today?

ANDREW MARR:

(over) And you won't have to offer them extra concessions if they do badly and lose AV?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

(over) No, I don't think … No because what we're doing in government is finding the right way forward together - it actually doesn't normally work in the manner of concessions to one side or the other - and that is working very well. And so that context has to be remembered: two parties have come together to work in the national interest. They are still two parties. Will they disagree from time to time? Of course they will, but it works a lot better than most coalitions you can see around the world.

ANDREW MARR:

Right, well let's turn to around the world and ask first of all about Syria, which seems to be turning into an absolutely appalling bloodbath with no sign of an exit at the moment.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

It is. There seem to have been about a hundred people killed in the last two days, including mourners at a funeral fired on yesterday. This is completely unacceptable behaviour. I'm very worried about the rapid deterioration of the situation. I have as of this morning changed the travel advice for Syria to say that British nationals should leave Syria now unless they have a pressing reason to remain. Obviously I'm concerned that if this trouble got worse, some of them would find that it wasn't easy to get out of Syria at all. So we have changed the travel advice and I want people to know that. But of course on the bigger picture, we urge the Syrian government to find the right way to better respect for democracy and human rights and accountability - including accountability for what's happened in the deaths of so many people - because they have to understand the change that is happening in the Arab world and the aspirations for greater political openness as well as economic success.

ANDREW MARR:

There is an authoritarian government, to put it gently, in Syria, which knows very well if there are free and fair elections, which is what the protestors want, they will be swept away, and they seem to have decided to dig their heels in and fight on. Is there actually anything that the outside world can do given that we're already engaged in Libya and around the world? This is presumably one conflict too many?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Well there are things that Arab nations can do, that a country like Turkey of course that is a very important neighbour of Syria and a major influence in Syria. There are things that those …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) But we can't help the rebels, can we, or the protestors?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Well it depends. Here we are not talking about a single organised, coherent opposition in any way. What has happened in Syria is many different groupings - many of them local groupings, but with legitimate grievances - have started discontent, have been involved in discontent in different parts of the country, and the inadequate reaction of the Syrian authorities in terms of reforms and over-reaction in terms of repression, I think is turning that into more of a national movement, but it takes many different forms. So, no, we're not helping them. We are not directly involved in Syria. But we will be working with our partners in the European Union and at the United Nations to see if we can persuade the Syrian authorities to go, as I say, more in that direction of respect for democracy and human rights.

ANDREW MARR:

But that's going to be difficult given the fact they think they're fighting for their own survival. If there is another slaughter, if there's another massacre on our television screens tomorrow and then another one the next day and the next day, is there anything more than persuasion that can be done to influence things?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Well that depends on what happens. All of these situations are different. In the case of Libya, there was a direct appeal for help from the Libyan opposition for a no fly zone and from the Arab League importantly that called on the United Nations to pass a resolution and to take action. So we mustn't think that just because we're doing certain things in Libya, that we would be able or willing to do those things in other countries of the Arab world.

ANDREW MARR:

Right.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

All of these situations are different. You're quite right that our influence on Syria is limited. But working with other countries, particularly Arab countries, I hope we can persuade them that there is a better way than the repression they're involved in now.

ANDREW MARR:

Well you raised the question of Libya. The Americans' most senior military commander now says that he fears that this is stalemate. What's the plan?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Well the plan of course is to continue to tighten the pressure of every form, including the military pressure that is being tightened at the moment on the Gaddafi regime.

ANDREW MARR:

Do we actually want … Do we want to kill Gaddafi? Is that what the drones are going in to do?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

That is not what … Well the drones are …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) American. I know that, but …

WILLIAM HAGUE:

… controlled by the United States. The answer to your question about targeting is that who and what is a legitimate target in this depends on how they behave and it depends on their behaviour. That's true of armed forces, whether they are threatening civilians; it's true of any aircraft that took to the skies; it's true of any leading figures as well. And that's always been the position and that hasn't changed.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) But we know how he's behaving. He's targeting and killing his own civilians. And in that regard, I'm interested in whether you think it would be justifiable to take him out?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

The answer is the same I've always given: it does depend on the behaviour of individuals and it also depends …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) So you're not saying no?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

… on minimising civilian casualties. Remember one of the things that we've stressed all along and desperately tried to do all along is to have no civilian casualties if we can possibly help it, to minimise civilian casualties, and so you always have to bear in mind on any specific target that we're trying to avoid those casualties. We are making progress militarily, there is no doubt about that. You've seen the reports from Misrata, although reports of the Gaddafi forces completely pulling out of Misrata seem to be exaggerated.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) It does tend to come and go.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

This may be cover for actually using more insurgent type warfare without any uniforms and without tanks. So it doesn't mean the Gaddafi regime has pulled out of Misrata, but they are clearly under military pressure and they will come under ever greater diplomatic and economic pressure which we will be continuing to work on over … Our contact group in Libya will meet again in about ten days time in Rome.

ANDREW MARR:

Are you talking to people inside the Gaddafi regime? Is that contact still open?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

That has become harder. The man I talked to most in the Gaddafi regime ended up here. Moussa Koussa …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) Who's still a player, isn't he, in all of this - Moussa Koussa?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Well in a much smaller way. Do we have contacts? Well sometimes we do have approaches from them, but those have not been serious approaches in recent times. There is a lot of evidence that they are demoralised, politically demoralised, although their military morale goes up and down as these events change. But I think a lot of them can see there is no future for this regime and I think that is clear. Time is not on Gaddafi's side. People ask about the exit strategy. It's Colonel Gaddafi who needs an exit strategy because this pressure will only mount and it will be intensified over the coming days and weeks.

ANDREW MARR:

It could go on for a very long time. Parliament is coming back shortly. A lot of MPs are worried about Mission Creep. We're putting advisers onto the ground and other people are getting arms into the rebels and so on. I mean what happens if some of our advisers are killed? Is this not the beginning of getting involved in a more direct way?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

We're not getting involved in terms of sending ground forces into Libya. Let's be clear about that. And indeed the UN Resolution forbids that. It says no foreign occupation of any part of Libya. We will keep the strong, legal, moral and international foundation to what we are doing that comes from acting within the United Nations Resolution. What we have to do to implement those resolutions will change from week to week, but that does not mean we are creeping into a ground war in Libya .We will not be doing that. It is not Iraq. People should be reassured about that and will seek to make a statement to parliament when it resumes on Tuesday so that MPs all have the change to ask about that.

ANDREW MARR:

Be reassured about that. And given that, it seems very, very hard to see a kind of clear cut military victory of any kind by anybody. Does it not follow that some kind of negotiation and possibly some kind of partition of Libya have now become the likeliest outcome?

WILLIAM HAGUE:

I don't think a partition because this is not an East/West split. You know there are many opposition supporters clearly in Western areas and there would be many more if they were free to express their opinion. Yes there's a political process needed at the end of all this, but that requires the Gaddafi forces to stop their attacks on civilians and indeed it requires Gaddafi to go.

ANDREW MARR:

William Hague, thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning.

WILLIAM HAGUE:

Thank you.

INTERVIEW ENDS

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