Douglas Alexander interview

On Sunday 24 October Andrew Marr interviewed Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary Douglas Alexander.

Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

ANDREW MARR:

So as the country begins to digest the meaning of the cuts in the spending review, beginning to pay back some of the money borrowed in the Labour years, what would today's Labour leaders do instead? Indignation's easy and everyone is in favour of austerity and belt-tightening for somebody else, but the coalition's been taunting Labour saying if you don't have a plan, you can't attack a plan. The toughest choices are probably in welfare and Douglas Alexander, who joins us now, speaks for the opposition on that. Welcome.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Good morning.

ANDREW MARR:

Thank you for coming in. Have you had a sort of shadow cabinet debate about economic strategy yet?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Yes, we have. We've had a discussion which anticipated the speech that Alan Johnson made last Monday and what's really emerged this week is that of course all governments would have faced difficult choices in a spending review dealing with the deficit after the global financial crisis, but there are two fundamental differences now between the parties. Firstly on the issue of growth and jobs, we believe that a longer dole queue makes it more difficult rather than more easy to deal with the deficit; and, secondly, on the issue of fairness where, according to the independent Institute for Fiscal Studies, the package that we got on Wednesday was simply unfair and hit the poor harder. We think that's wrong and so there are clear differences between the two parties.

ANDREW MARR:

So where in your area, the welfare area, would you make cuts?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Well I've said for example on disability living allowance, we need to rewrite the rules and we will work with the government to support them as they rewrite those rules to make sure that we transfer people in a more fair and equitable way. Secondly, I've said that we should look at the transition that's already happening from incapacity benefit to employment support allowance. So those are two clear examples where I think we should do more.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) So putting people off incapacity benefit, half a million people off that, is a reasonable ambition for the government?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Well we actually started that process. I think we came to it a little late, to be honest, because what we'd seen during those Labour years was many people who had been shoved off the unemployment queues by the Conservatives into invalidity benefit were still sitting there. And that's why I think it's right. It's a difficult process, but it's he right process to take forward.

ANDREW MARR:

What about the huge issue of housing benefit and indeed the money, the support for social housing because that has grown enormously and something had to be done about it, presumably?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

You're right, housing benefit is an issue that needs to be reformed. But this is a clear example of where the coalition has just comprehensively failed the fairness test. How can it be right that somebody who's on jobseeker's allowance, has spent a year looking for a job doing all the right things, turning up for interviews, arbitrarily on a timetable now set by this coalition is going to lose 10% of their housing benefit after one year? I mean we wanted to make sure that if you were long-term unemployed, you were guaranteed a job. We seem to be in a position now where after a year, this Conservative government are threatening people's homes.

ANDREW MARR:

Overall, you wanted as a party to spend … to have more of the deficit dealt with through tax rises than through spending cuts compared to the coalition's plans. Would you be … Had you been in power now, would you be raising taxes now, do you think?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Well we set out our thinking when Alan spoke last week. He said that it is simply wrong to have a deficit reduction programme which takes more from people's children than from Britain's banks. So if we were to identify one area where we think in terms of the tax take more could be done, then we should be looking to the banks. We simply don't think the coalition is doing enough. But actually let's be clear, Andrew. There was a political strategy that informed last week's Comprehensive Spending Review, which showed much more to George Osborne's ambitions, incidentally, than Iain Duncan Smith's. He was determined to try and take so much out of welfare to be able to pretend, wrongly, that the rest of the public service cuts were simply what Labour would have been doing. The fact that we would take more money out of the banks would stop a situation where we have such an unfair package that we've seen last week.

ANDREW MARR:

I suppose why a lot of people get suspicious when people like you talk about the banks is although there may be moral indignation about bank bonuses and all of the rest of it, the idea that you could get that kind of money out of the banking industry, the kind of money that's being taken out of welfare and taken out of other government spending programmes is impossible. I mean you know we're talking … we're not talking like for like here. The amount of money you can get out of the banks is pretty tiny overall.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

(over) Of course. I mean, listen, if you add together the pensions …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) So if that's the answer, it's not the answer.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

No, no of course. If you add together the pensions, the benefits, the tax credits bill, it accounts for more than a quarter of public expenditure. So welfare has to take its share of responsibility for dealing with the deficit. But, on the other hand, we are in a position where under Alexander Darling's initiative, the banks were easily able to make a contribution last year. We simply don't understand the political judgement that said we're going to take more from Britain's families in child benefit and in tax credits than we're going to try and take from Britain's banks when we see profitability rising back up in the financial services sector.

ANDREW MARR:

I still don't fully understand where the money is going to come from under the Labour thinking because you know it's very easy to say that they're taking the wrong decisions, they're being too brutal, they're being too quick, but under Alistair Darling Labour was going to take some pretty hard decisions as well and we haven't seen any of the detail about where you would cut in big terms.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Well forgive me, Andrew. I've given you two examples.

ANDREW MARR:

Relatively modest, if I may say so, in overall spending.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Well no, it would make a significant contribution in terms of what we need to do within welfare. But listen, what happened after Labour lost in May, we had two indicators: one is that borrowing was lower than expected; and, secondly, that growth was higher. What Alistair Darling was doing was keeping the economy growing, and that's why we have such concerns about what we saw this week because actually it's more difficult, not more easy to deal with the deficit if your economy is not growing strongly …

ANDREW MARR:

Okay.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

… and that's why on jobs and growth, we think the Conservatives have got it wrong.

ANDREW MARR:

What about the biggest single idea from the coalition, which is this universal credit, the biggest idea in your area? One single system for everybody. It'll cost quite a bit of money to introduce, but sounds to a lot of people a fair and reasonable thing to be trying to do.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

It sounds sensible to me, and in principle I support the idea both of making the benefit system less complex and also going to a single benefit. But you've got to ask why then this week Iain Duncan Smith agreed with George Osborne to cut council tax benefit by 10% and to hugely make more complex the benefit system with individual benefits being paid by local authorities. And of course, as you say, they've said there's going to be about £2 billion of costs for this universal credit - administrative costs in the immediate months ahead. We're going to have to scrutinise how that money's being spent very carefully.

ANDREW MARR:

Are we going to see a sort of comprehensive Labour plan that says this is where we should be cutting, this is what we would cut, this is how the numbers add up, this is where we disagree and we would do x or y instead?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Well, listen, I don't think it's very sensible to write a shadow budget five months after you've lost an election and five years before the next election. But I've shown this morning in my area …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) It's just that that leaves you open …

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

No.

ANDREW MARR:

… exactly to what David Cameron said to Ed Miliband, which if you don't have a plan, you can't attack a plan.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Well we have a clear plan, which is to say that it is easier to deal with the deficit if you secure growth and jobs in the economy. That's why Alan Johnson set out his thinking there. We would have a different balance between taxation on the banks and the cuts in public services that we've seen. And I've given you some very specific examples this morning of changes that we would support in welfare.

ANDREW MARR:

You were a great supporter of David Miliband.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

I was.

ANDREW MARR:

And I just wondered a) how he's doing; and b) whether you think, because you were right at the centre of all of this, whether the brothers are talking again, are reconciled again?

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Well, listen, I'm very proud to have worked with David. He's a good friend of mine and he's doing absolutely fine. I think Ed's got off to a great start. I think most people were disappointed by quite how civil the leadership contest was. And actually since the election of David, we've continued in that spirit.

ANDREW MARR:

Alright, Douglas Alexander, thank you very much indeed.

DOUGLAS ALEXANDER:

Thank you.

INTERVIEW ENDS

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