Transcript of Peter Hain interview

PLEASE NOTE "THE ANDREW MARR SHOW" MUST BE CREDITED IF ANY PART OF THIS TRANSCRIPT IS USED

On Sunday 10th April Martha Kearney interviewed Shadow Welsh Secretary Peter Hain

MARTHA KEARNEY:

Now Labour's General Election defeat last year was one of the worst in the party's history. When Ed Miliband became Leader, he said a new generation had taken charge, it was time for some fresh thinking, and he ordered a thorough policy review. But there could also be changes in the party's structure and organisation, including its relationship with the trade unions, its principal financial backers. The experienced former Cabinet Minister, and now Shadow Welsh Secretary Peter Hain, is in charge of that process and he joins me now from his home near Neath. How important do you think it is, Peter Hain, that you address the issue of the structures, which could sound slightly arcane actually?

PETER HAIN:

It's very important because what Ed Miliband is very clear about is that politics has changed fundamentally even from ten years ago. All parties have suffered a decline in membership - Labour included - although we've bounced back with 50,000 new members in the last few months under Ed's leadership.

MARTHA KEARNEY:

Yes, but you've lost, haven't you, 60% of party members since 1997?

PETER HAIN:

Exactly. There's a longer term trend, going back decades, in which politics has changed fundamentally. People aren't joining any party as much as they used to. People are wanting to relate to politics in a different way. For example, when the government was forced into a u-turn on the forestry sell-offs, that was on the back of a 500,000, a half a million petition, popular uprising expressed through the internet. And we as a party need to recognise all of those changes - recognise that people may want to be supporters, have an association with Labour …

MARTHA KEARNEY:

Sure.

PETER HAIN:

… but might not want to be full members in the way the rest of us are.

MARTHA KEARNEY:

Indeed. But one of the most fundamental things which people will be looking to you to address is the link with the trade unions. And in your consultation document, you acknowledge yourself that what's been happening within the Trade Union Movement, the way there have been so many mergers, means that a lot of power is concentrated now in far fewer hands than when the original relationship was formed. Do you think that that does need radical reform?

PETER HAIN:

Well one of the things we want to consult about is how we can extend our reach in a way that used to be the case when union affiliated membership was much, much higher. 6.5 million affiliated Labour Party members in 1979. Less than half that now - 2.7 million - and, yes, union mergers concentrating organisation. What we want to do is not contract our relationship or reduce our relationship with the Trade Union Movement, but make sure we're able to reach right out into communities and workplaces in the way that Labour used to do. And that is what this reform is all about.

MARTHA KEARNEY:

(over) Well I can understand why you want more members, absolutely. But there is a view that the Labour Party is controlled by the trade unions, and increasingly fewer of those trade unions, because you're so reliant on them financially.

PETER HAIN:

Well obviously with the financial situation that the party's faced in recent times, union funding is critically important, and that's contributed by millions of ordinary individual union members who are affiliate themselves through their unions to the Labour Party and we're proud of that. But this debate about re-founding the Labour Party - the title of our consultation exercise - is to make sure that we become a party that leapfrogs the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats and the others, becomes an entirely new and different party - for an internet generation having a relationship, yes, with the unions …

MARTHA KEARNEY:

(over) But will the trade unions let you do that?

PETER HAIN:

… but going much beyond that.

MARTHA KEARNEY:

Will the trade unions let you do that?

PETER HAIN:

Oh, I'm sure. The unions …

MARTHA KEARNEY:

Len McCluskey - Unite Union he's Head of, is Labour's biggest single donor - he says he hasn't paid any lump sums since Ed Miliband won the leadership. He says, "I'm not prepared to continue to sign blank cheques. There has to be a recognition of the values that are close to trade union members' hearts." So doesn't that mean that this enormous trade union is dictating Labour Party policy?

PETER HAIN:

No, it doesn't. And I've had very good conversations with Len in which he has agreed with me that one of the real problems say at a local party level is that unions are no longer sending the delegates that they used to to local party meetings. That means local parties and MPs and parliamentary candidates and councillors are not as in touch with the workplace, with ordinary working people as they used to be. So we need to bind that relationship back together. And there will be changes undoubtedly. How can we bring Labour supporters who identify with the party in to take part in our activities without compromising the rights of individual party members who pay the full membership fee or trade union affiliated members? This is part of a very exciting debate about changing Labour to meet the conditions of this period.

MARTHA KEARNEY:

(over) And tell me about your role in this debate. What do you think should happen as far as the leadership contest rules go? There were a lot of question marks raised about that - people having more than one vote, people feeling that trade unionists had too big a say in electing Ed Miliband.

PETER HAIN:

Well the fact that I as an MP not only had a vote that was equivalent to around 800 individual party members' votes but about 11,000 trade union votes is clearly an issue, as was the fact that I was able to vote a number of times - in my trade union section, my party section, as well as the big influence I had as an MP. So I think we need to address that.

MARTHA KEARNEY:

Interesting.

PETER HAIN:

And we need to consult about how we enlarge the party, not contract it - enlarge it to extend right the way into workplaces that trade unions no longer reach and into communities.

MARTHA KEARNEY:

(over) Indeed, as you've said.

PETER HAIN:

People are organising in different ways.

MARTHA KEARNEY:

And just before you go, I wanted to ask you about the News of the World apology that we've seen today. There are a number of Labour people who've been caught up in that. Do you think that they should settle out of court, or is it important that this is pursued towards a public hearing?

PETER HAIN:

Well there are more revelations coming up day by day, and it's vital that there's a full and proper public investigation of this. It's vital that the police pursue it to the end. Frankly they have been tardy up until recent times in not really identifying the truth and bringing criminal prosecutions where they're necessary. And the News of the World has at last admitted what people were increasingly aware of - that there was a dangerous attempt to subvert public life and particularly politics. And what if they had been tapping the phone or hacking into the phone of the Chancellor or, for that matter, Secretary State for Northern Ireland like I was in the past, or Secretary of State for Defence or the Foreign Secretary. Who knows what they are up to really, and so this is a really serious media scandal.

MARTHA KEARNEY:

And where does it leave the News Corp bid to own the whole of BSkyB?

PETER HAIN:

Well these things are separate in my view and should be considered separately. This is not about the wider issue of Sky and its situation in broadcasting. What we have seen here is a rogue newspaper behaving in a rogue fashion and subverting democratic rights and subverting people's individual human rights whether they are politicians or celebrities. And that is what the scandal is about, and the failure by News International to accept that and to admit it up until recently and the failure of Scotland Yard up until recently really to get to the bottom of this matter and the truth has been what the real scandal's been.

MARTHA KEARNEY:

Peter Hain, thank you for joining us.

INTERVIEW ENDS

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