Transcript of Yvette Cooper interview

PLEASE NOTE "THE ANDREW MARR SHOW" MUST BE CREDITED IF ANY PART OF THIS TRANSCRIPT IS USED

On Sunday 3rd April Andrew Marr interviewed Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper

ANDREW MARR:

Like almost every part of the public sector, the police are facing budget cuts: 20% over the next 4 years. Labour says this will inevitably mean fewer frontline staff - something the government disputes, telling the police to work more efficiently instead. Besides surely if Labour were in power, they'd be cutting as well. One of the hottest topics at the moment, this, and it's going to be debated in the House of Commons tomorrow. I'm joined now by the Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper. Thank you for joining us, Yvette.

YVETTE COOPER:

Good morning, Andrew.

ANDREW MARR:

Before we go to the policing story, let me ask you about the Musa Kusa story because of course you were Shadow Foreign Secretary, but there's also a Home Office issue here, isn't there, about whether he is to be investigated for some of the terrible crimes that were committed on these shores?

YVETTE COOPER:

Well I think it is extremely important that he is properly questioned both about the events around Lockerbie, but also about what happened to PC Yvonne Fletcher and her murder some years before as well. So it is important that those investigations take place. I don't know obviously what discussions the government's been having with him at the moment, and clearly you know they've said he's not going to be free from immunity and I think that is important.

ANDREW MARR:

So this terribly difficult dilemma between justice on the one hand, including for the bereaved families of people who were murdered, on the one hand, and the realpolitik of trying to bring down Gaddafi's regime more quickly. Which sort of side do you think weighs more heavily?

YVETTE COOPER:

Well I think of course there are political objectives in terms of what is happening in Libya as well as the support for you know the military action that's taking place - although there are questions obviously about where this goes from here, which I'm sure you'll be discussing later with the Foreign Secretary. But I think that you know obviously there are discussions taking place at the moment about what's happening in Libya. What's really important is that at the appropriate time, there is also a full investigation and full questioning about these other criminal incidents too.

ANDREW MARR:

Let's turn to the police. The government says that they can achieve the cuts that need to be made without losing people on the frontline. Given the very large numbers of people that do work behind the scenes and do all sorts of jobs which aren't frontline policing ones, why would they be wrong about that?

YVETTE COOPER:

Well I think we're already seeing police officers being lost from the frontline. We know that they're going to be losing over 12,000 police officers, another 15,000 police support staff. And we're also already seeing some of the 2,000 officers who are being forced into early retirement, many of them are frontline officers. They're working in neighbourhood policing, in firearms, in a whole series of different areas. You know you talk to them. They are coming off the frontline and chief constables are confirming the same thing too.

ANDREW MARR:

And yet if you were in power, you would have to make pretty similar sorts of cuts. Why would you be able to make cuts in the police? Or wouldn't you make cuts in the police? Would you actually spend more money on the police than this current government's doing? And if so, where would it come from?

YVETTE COOPER:

Well they're cutting 20% from the police.

ANDREW MARR:

Yuh.

YVETTE COOPER:

I think that's cutting too far too fast and hitting an important public service. We had said of course you would need to make some cuts to the police budget. Alan Johnson's assessment when he was Home Secretary was that you could make around 12% spread over a parliament without needing to then cut the number of police officers or PCSOs. That was his judgement. Interestingly, the independent Inspectorate of Constabulary came to a similar figure. They also found that around 12% could be cut, again over a series of years, without hitting frontline services. The trouble is the government's just ripped that up and said no, we're going to go for 20% and have the deepest cuts in the first two years. And that I think is what is putting chief constables across the country in an impossible position.

ANDREW MARR:

And so if you wouldn't make that level of cuts at that speed, where would the cuts fall instead because there is an easy opposition, isn't there, in being able to say at the time we're against this cut, we're against that cut, we'll protect this, we'll protect that without ever telling people the tough choices that still have to be made?

YVETTE COOPER:

Well, as you know Andrew, we've already said that we think the government overall is cutting too far too fast, and they're going about 40 billion further and faster than we would in terms of bringing the deficit down. That is also as a result, of course, hitting jobs and hitting the economy. So as a result in fact they're going to make it harder for themselves because you know if you've got more people on the dole, then actually that increases the amount you spend on benefits. That has fewer people paying taxes and therefore makes it harder as well. So I think what they're doing is hitting the economy, but of course also hitting public services in an area which is putting communities at risk. And we've seen the South Yorkshire chief constable say this weekend that he is now warning about a risk of increases in crime as a result of what the government is doing.

ANDREW MARR:

What about the Winsor reforms in police pay and conditions and overtime and all of those sorts of issues, which again I mean many people would say it's just inconceivable that there aren't efficiencies to be made. Do you support those?

YVETTE COOPER:

Well Alan Johnson had already said he thought you could cut around £80 million from the overtime budget. So of course there are always reforms you can look at, and I think you can debate you know what should the appropriate terms and conditions be for the future. We have the Winsor Report, but I think it's important that that is done through negotiation with the police, through a sensible process of working with the police on reform and not by picking fights with the police, which unfortunately is what we've seen. The Home Secretary seemed to be pre-empting the report and seemed to be really doing a lot of briefing, a tax on police officers, you know using a small number of cases to try and make a general point. And to be honest, I don't think that is an appropriate way to approach police negotiations …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) Are you …

YVETTE COOPER:

… and it's kind of creating a perfect storm. You know you attack the police and also make cuts in the number of police, and of course cutting prevention and probation at the same time. Put all of those things together and I do think it's taking risks.

ANDREW MARR:

Margot James raised the question of those people being prosecuted for the Fortnum and Mason's affair. There's the Royal Wedding coming up. I know that Labour is taking a more liberal attitude to civil rights these days, but where do you stand on the Home Secretary taking extra powers to identify people, perhaps to stop and search people before they enter the centre of London on those kind of occasions?

YVETTE COOPER:

Well I think we stand where we always stood, which is - I think Tony Blair said it first - to be tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime. That hasn't changed at all, and so I think …

ANDREW MARR:

So stop and search would be alright?

YVETTE COOPER:

Well stop and search has always been used and you'll be aware of that where there is a fear of a terrorist incident and so on. So I think of course the police have got to have the powers that they need to use. I also think you know some of the things we've seen in the demonstrations, we cannot let a small minority of people - the Black Bloc or self you know styled anarchists or whatever - put at risk people's legitimate right to peaceful protest by you know committing violent and criminal acts. And so I think the police in fact handled the demonstration very well. They supported the peaceful demonstration, but separately dealt with you know these violent and criminal acts and I think they were right to do so. What I've said to Theresa May is I think she needs to look now at a serious overall strategy, which may involve looking at powers but also should look at other issues in the same way we dealt with football hooliganism if you go back ten years ago where we had a serious problem of a small minority disturbing legitimate crowds. That was dealt with.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) So be tough with it.

YVETTE COOPER:

You need the same kind of coordinated action.

ANDREW MARR:

Alright. Yvette Cooper, thank you very much indeed for joining me.

INTERVIEW ENDS

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