PLEASE NOTE "THE ANDREW MARR SHOW" MUST BE CREDITED IF ANY PART OF THIS TRANSCRIPT IS USED On Sunday 3rd April Andrew Marr interviewed Archbishop Desmond Tutu ANDREW MARR: Archbishop Desmond Tutu has been an outspoken critic of Colonel Gaddafi in the past, saying his actions have "shamed the continent of Africa". He's in the UK for a big international conference and he joins me now. Good morning, Archbishop. Thank you for joining us this morning. ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Good morning. ANDREW MARR: Archbishop, there's a great dilemma clearly for the government reflected in this morning's newspapers about Musa Kusa who has defected from Libya and appears to be trying to encourage others to do so, but is also accused of some very, very serious involvement in terrible terrorist crimes. What are your reflections on the balance, the very difficult balance between forgiving or pardoning or giving an amnesty to somebody in the cause of trying to end a regime? ARCHBISHOP TUTU: I think I mean that our main purpose, our main aim would be to see an end to the carnage. We want to prevent as many people being killed as possible. I mean we have, I hope I mean that that is the purpose, and clearly it means that Colonel Gaddafi must step down. Unfortunately, life tends to be messy and we have to hope I mean that the people, the Libyans will eventually see that it is better to try and heal through maybe forgiving, through amnesty, but that must be a decision of the Libyans. ANDREW MARR: So when it comes to people in this country who want to see the likes of Musa Kusa brought to justice, tried, you would say to them whatever your feelings, the greater interest is in ending the problems in Libya even if that means allowing him to go away home again safely? ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Yuh, I think I mean that we have constantly got to be weighing what is in the best interest of the most people without giving the impression that impunity can happen. You've got to say we have two wrongs, I mean as it were, wrongs, two evils, and you have to look usually for what is the lesser. I mean we don't have absolutes here and it is usually people who are absolute, are dogmatic who cause a great deal more trouble. ANDREW MARR: What about Colonel Gaddafi himself? You've been very critical of him in the past. There are some suggestions that he might be able to go to somewhere like Uganda to have refuge there in order to encourage the regime to end. ARCHBISHOP TUTU: I would say what I've just said now. I mean you keep having to balance what is a lesser evil. It's quite clear that in the best of worlds, it would be a good thing for us to say you clobber him, capture him and let him stand for trial. But we know that that doesn't usually happen in the world in which we inhabit and say what is again the lesser of two evils … ANDREW MARR: Yeah. ARCHBISHOP TUTU: … to let him have a soft landing and save the lives of as many people as you possibly can. ANDREW MARR: Can I also ask you about what's going on in the Cote d'Ivoire where, a terrible situation, hundreds of people seem to be being killed because an elected leader can't take power. What do you think the outside world should be doing to help? ARCHBISHOP TUTU: Well I mean we've got a massive, horrendous humanitarian situation there with so many, over a million refugees already. And we've got to do everything we can to stop the killings and call on both sides, but especially Ouattara's side, please exercise as much restraint as you can. It's people's lives that are at stake. It's not flies. These are not just things. It's human beings. And just think of what it is going to be like trying to heal a country that you have helped to, in many ways to destroy. Please, please all of you in Cote d'Ivoire, please for goodness sake remember these are God's children. These are your sisters and brothers. Exercise restraint and do everything you can to heal that land. ANDREW MARR: Archbishop, thank you very much indeed. I know you've retired from public life, so thank you very much indeed for breaking your silence for us this morning. (Archbishop Tutu laughs) INTERVIEW ENDS
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