PLEASE NOTE "THE ANDREW MARR SHOW" MUST BE CREDITED IF ANY PART OF THIS TRANSCRIPT IS USED On Sunday 6th March Andrew Marr interviewed David Miliband. ANDREW MARR: Good morning. Now, you were Foreign Secretary for quite a while, what's your take on where we are now with Libya? I mean, if this country's going into civil war, it is difficult for us to stand back, isn't it? DAVID MILIBAND Well, it's very difficult, but I think it's very important that we understand there's plenty of space between invasion on the one hand and acquiescence on the other. Douglas Alexander, the Shadow Foreign Secretary, has written a really thoughtful piece in I think the Observer today about what European nations can do without ever getting into the position of believing that we are somehow governing what is going on in Libya. He makes the point, for example, that the EU summit on Friday should actually join up with the Arab League, because that is the collection of Arab countries that in the end is going to be absolutely key in exerting some pressure there. ANDREW MARR We talk about Libya, but of course it's not just Libya, there's things kicking off in Bahrain at the moment and all around that region people are worrying about the oil price and so on, so what's the... DAVID MILIBAND Well, the march of freedom and democracy stopped in the Middle East after the 80s and 90s, you remember in Latin America, in south Asia outside China, you had big democratic revolutions, in the Middle East it seems to stop, and I think the power of the people-led revolts, and at the moment they're revolts rather than revolutions in the Middle East, is very significant indeed. I think they're being done, it's not the west that's leading this, I mean, our credibility is not high amongst the people who are leading these revolts, let's be absolutely clear about that, there are things we can do, and one thing that I think is important is that obviously social media, telephone, internet has been very important in these revolts, Gadaffi in Libya is trying to shut that down. I understand that technologically we can actually make it possible for these people to communicate with each other, there are ways in which we can make a difference without falling into the trap of believing that either we choose between just lying down in front of Gadaffi and on the other hand sort of leading... ANDREW MARR ...a way. DAVID MILIBAND ... a western-led invasion... ANDREW MARR And yet, if he was using his pretty substantial air force to kind of slaughter people around Libya, we would have to get involved to stop that, wouldn't we? DAVID MILIBAND Absolutely right, because the responsibility to protect that the United Nations endorsed in 2005 is a very significant statement, that when a state threatens its own people there are international responsibilities, but I think that in Libya it's going to have to be a big squeeze rather than a big bang on Gadaffi, we have to squeeze his oil money, and remember, he's using the oil money to pay for mercenaries to come from parts of Africa to fight against his own people, we're going to have to squeeze him politically, for example, by engaging the Arab League, and we're also going to have to make sure that in the appropriate way the people, I don't really like to call them rebels, they're people, the, the people, need to know they've got our support. ANDREW MARR As Foreign Secretary, you were part of this business of bringing Libya in from the cold and getting involved with the Gadaffis and Saif Gadaffi's lecture was the Ralph Miliband lecture, I seem to think... DAVID MILIBAND Which is horrific... ANDREW MARR ... at the LSE. DAVID MILIBAND ... I mean, is there, I mean, just to say, the Ralph Miliband programme at the LSE was founded by a former student of my dad in the 1950s, who said he'd learned more in the seminars of my Dad, which was obviously on the left, he'd learned more about the right because my Dad believed in showing all sides of opinion. My Dad, I mean, the idea that there's a Saif Gadaffi giving a lecture under his name is just horrific to him and horrific to the whole family, obviously, and I think there's a wider issue, obviously, which is that the LSE have announced an enquiry into whether at any stage their academic independence has been compromised- I think by Lord Woolf, it's very important that that's carried though. The broader point, obviously, about... ANDREW MARR ... do you think there are lessons to be learned about how quickly everybody, including yourself, cosied up... DAVID MILIBAND Well, there are always lessons... but if we go back to 2003/4, remember, Libya was the country that was the prime sponsor, not just of international terrorism in general, but IRA terrorism in particular, Semtex, arms were going from Libya to support the IRA, to kill British people on the British mainland, and so the... ANDREW MARR And you're clear that was sort of stopped by this rapprochement? DAVID MILIBAND Yeah. ANDREW MARR That did then... because of that? DAVID MILIBAND Yes, Gadaffi, for a range of reasons, some his own fear, but also because he could see some benefits, he did come in from the cold and he did renounce that, the International Atomic Energy Au-, the IAEA went in there, the IAEA went into Libya to make sure that he did, all those weapons of mass destruction were taken apart, actually there were more than we expected when... in two thousand and... ANDREW MARR He's still, he's still got mustard gas, we read at the moment... DAVID MILIBAND Well, let's get, let's get, I mean, let's get the full facts on that, but I think that the idea that we'd be any better off now, if he was in his bunker with access to terrible weapons is quite wrong, because the defau-, the sad thing is that isolating regimes doesn't actually work terribly well, we're doing it rightly, in my view, on Burma, on North Korea, but it's a very slow, it's a very slow business, it's not immediately obvious that we're making progress, I think the decision in 2003/4, to take advantage of the fear that Gadaffi had, was the right decision. ANDREW MARR Now, we haven't heard a great deal from you on the domestic front recently, but you're getting back into the argument next week and looking at why it is that so many European countries, I think almost all of them now, have rejected left of centre governments. DAVID MILIBAND I think this is more than an accident, I mean, in 1999, 13 of 15 European Union governments we're on the centre left, now Britain, France, Germany, Holland, Italy, Sweden, those six countries, the heart of European social democracy, all run from the centre right, that hasn't happened since the First World War, the whole era of democratic suffrage has never had six governments of the centre right in those six countries, we're losing voters across classes, across values, and that's in part because the economic terms of trade have turned in the last ten years, it's become a much tougher, harsher economic climate, it's in part because the right have got smart, they got beaten in the 90s and they responded, they moved onto the centre ground. ANDREW MARR But what about what the left has to learn, what about the Labour Party, what are the lessons that the Labour Party should be learning looking at this trend? DAVID MILIBAND Well, the big promise of progressive politics has always got to be, we'll protect you better and we'll help you protect yourself better from the dangers of life, whether they be unemployment or ill health. We'll give you more control over your own life, and we'll help build a community that's worth living in. In each of those three areas, issues like welfare, the economy and wages, immigration, we've found ourselves on the back foot, and absolutely imperative, not just to the Labour Party but actually for the rest of European progressive parties, is to get back on the front foot on those issues. ANDREW MARR Let me ask you particularly about immigration, because it's very interesting polling last week, for instance, showing very, very high proportion of British voters support pretty hard right views on immigration. Now, whether that's just because of the economic climate or whether it's because in office Labour failed to keep a grip on immigration, I don't know, but how important is that issue? DAVID MILIBAND ... everyone should read this Searchlight report, because what it shows is that immigration doesn't sit on its own, the issues of immigration and identity fit absolutely together alongside economic issues, and that is the dangerous cocktail that is there. I don't think left of centre parties can ever get into a situation, whether they're in a race at the bottom or a competition at the bottom against the right, they'll never win that on the harshness. But they've got to, we've got to be able to stand for an immigration policy that is not just well run, but is clearly fair in the interests of people who live in this country as well as people who want to come here. ANDREW MARR Which is all about economic security as well, which then leads us to issues like tax, your brother has spoken a lot about the squeezed middle and the importance of helping people whose budgets are really going to be hit pretty hard by inflation, higher fuel prices and, indeed, taxation... DAVID MILIBAND But I think he's really touched a chord there with what he's said about the squeezed middle, it raises difficult issues about the balance between tax and spending, about interest rates and a whole range of issues, but the left has to reclaim ground on the economy, it's ironic but also indicative that the one way the French left thinks it's going to win is by getting Dominic Strauss-Khan, the head of the IMF, to come and be their candidate in the presidential elections against Nicholas Sarkozy, so in every country it seems to me the route map for the centre left has three components - one is about organisation, we can't afford to be the elitists in politics, we've got to be living our lives amongst the people actually organising, that's why I... ANDREW MARR A few lessons from the terrible expenses scandals and politicians getting disconnected form their own voters... DAVID MILIBAND Well, I think I've changed... ANDREW MARR ... and so on must be learned. You've changed? DAVID MILIBAND I think I've changed, because a lot of my time in politics was spent in think tanks, what I'm spending some of my time on now is something called the Movement for Change, which is trying to train 10,000 community leaders over the next four years to help make change in their communities, so organisation is part one of the route map. Part two is ideas, and we have to be the people who show what it means to build a moral economy, we don't need Mervin King, it's good that he says the banks have to act in a moral way, we've got to be doing that. ANDREW MARR But you have to be quite tough, don't you, on accepting the need for some cuts, accepting the need for some tax raises, given the fiscal position? DAVID MILIBAND Of course. Because we have to be an economically credible force wherever you are in Europe, so you've got to get the organisation, you've got to get the ideas, and you also need a political strategy, and that will be different in every country, but it must mean reoccupying the high ground, and in a country like Britain, we've got to do that by learning the right lessons of Labour in government, we've got to make sure that when Liam Fox just comes on and says every decision he's taken is actually simply our fault, we've got to say, no, that's wrong, actually you can't claim that the necessary attempts to right the, to stop a recession becoming a slump somehow is an excuse for changing the country in the dangerous ways the Tories are now doing. ANDREW MARR What about your own position, you've talked about the Movement for Change and the stuff that you're doing outside Westminster, but we also read, one day you're going to be running a football club, the next day you're going to be taking my job or you're going to be... in television... DAVID MILIBAND No, don't worry, don't worry, I'm not auditioning today, don't worry. ANDREW MARR .. you're not going to be the Michael Portillo of the Labour Party, making... DAVID MILIBAND No, Strictly Come Dancing, Have I Got News for You, no, I'm not doing any of that, I am not leader of the Labour Party, but I still want to help change the world, I still believe passionately in the causes that got me involved in politics and so on, foreign policy, I want to speak up for an open and connected world, I want to speak up on Afghanistan, which is in danger of becoming the forgotten war, and I think we've got some very difficult issues there, I want to speak up on the community issues and I want to make sure that on issues like the environment, which is something I've been associated with in the past, doesn't get lost. ANDREW MARR And do you want to do that as a MP, are you going to stand at the next election... DAVID MILIBAND Yeah. ANDREW MARR ... stay in Parliament, stay involved? DAVID MILIBAND I'm very committed to my constituency, you mentioned Sunderland Football Club, I'm the Vice Chairman of Sunderland Football Club, it's the closest club to my constituency. The reason I've joined them is that they do community work of an absolutely fantastic kind, over 80 full-time staff helping 40,000 kids in the north east do sport, so I think that my comm-, my constituency roots are really important for me, and I feel very committed. ANDREW MARR How are things going with the brother? DAVID MILIBAND You're brothers for life and your politicians for a Parliament at a time. And it's very, very important, that, and the other thing about brothers is that what's brotherly is private, despite the temptations on Sunday morning TV. ANDREW MARR Sure, but if you're going to, you're definitely going to stand at the next election as an MP, presumably if your party wins an election you are one of the big beats of the Labour Party these days, you would like to be back as a minister one day. DAVID MILIBAND I'm taking this one Parliament at a time, one parliament at a time, and I think the idea that I'm starting bidding for jobs in a future Labour government when I'm about to make a speech about how the sort of mountain that left of centre parties face, I think that's getting ahead of ourselves, but what's important is that the Labour Party makes itself a fighting force ready to provide a real alternative for the country. ANDREW MARR So you're using this time to rethink, to get out there, to recharge your political batteries, to reflect on things that you didn't see in power? DAVID MILIBAND Yeah, I hope that being 45 and being a relative veteran doesn't mean that it's all downhill from here. I mean, I hope that I can be stretched into new areas, I've not spent time in business, I've not spent time doing some things that actually will stretch me and help develop me, and in whatever way I can try and make that, use that to make contribution to things I believe in.... ANDREW MARR It doesn't sound to me as if you will be particularly tempted by what so many people do, which is be taken out of politics and plonked into some big bureaucratic or international job elsewhere. Let's put him in charge of this bit of Europe, or let's send him to Washington... DAVID MILIBAND Well, I think we'd be, on the Europe we've sort of been there and done that, we had, we went through that a couple of years ago, the truth is, life never goes according to plan, actually there isn't a plan, you've got a series of circumstances and you try and make the best of it, sometimes it hurts, it's worth saying that, sometimes it hurts, but you've got to get up afterwards and make the best of it, and I think that, there's a world out there, and it's a world of enormous interest and it's a world that needs to be changed, and in smaller ways perhaps than I had once hoped I'll try and make a difference. ANDREW MARR So if Washington beckoned, you wouldn't go? DAVID MILIBAND You mean... ANDREW MARR A big ambassadorship or something like that. DAVID MILIBAND Big house, but, nice house, but that's not the test of whether or not you want to do a job. ANDREW MARR All right, for now, David Miliband, thank you very much
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