On Sunday 6th February Andrew Marr interviewed Foreign Secretary William Hague. Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used. ANDREW MARR: What's happening in Egypt is posing real questions for other countries, of course - including ours: big political and economic implications for the whole Middle East and Israel. It's been rather hard to work out just what the British position is on it all - pro the pro-democracy revolt or more worried about instability to come? Well I am joined now by the Foreign Secretary, William Hague. Welcome Mr Hague. WILLIAM HAGUE: Thank you. ANDREW MARR: Do you think that President Mubarak should go now? WILLIAM HAGUE: I don't think that is for us in another country to say. It's difficult to work out our position. But we have the right to say a couple of things very clearly, but I don't think we have the right to choose Egypt's President. I think where there is actual repression and where there has been abuse of the internet - trying to take over mobile phone networks, trying to drop concrete blocks onto protestors - there we are allowed to protest. Egypt is an independent country, as the minister there was just saying, but those things we are allowed to protest about anywhere in the world and it is a huge mistake by the authorities in Egypt to indulge in any of that sort of behaviour. We're also allowed to say that it's in our interests to have a stable and democratic future for Egypt, and we want Egyptians with different views to be able to sort out their views in a stable, democratic way. It's not our role to say the President must go on a particular day or this individual must be included in the Egyptian cabinet. So I think we have to keep up the pressure for that orderly transition we've called for to visibly take place for people - the real visible and comprehensive change that will bring people together in Egypt. ANDREW MARR: So what do you mean by "transition"? WILLIAM HAGUE: Well clearly there's going to be a change in Egypt. The President has said he is going. There is this huge pent-up demand that we've seen now released onto the streets for political change, and I think for economic change and improvement for the mass of the people in Egypt as well. Now that means getting to that point successfully, peacefully, without violence or more disorder or more authoritarian government; means some mixture of a government now in Egypt that is more broadly based, a review of the … ANDREW MARR: (over) You say now? WILLIAM HAGUE: Yes. ANDREW MARR: I mean because this is the interesting thing. The Americans for instance are talking about you know a three-headed provisional government to take over or perhaps … WILLIAM HAGUE: (over) Well they could do that sort of thing. Again I don't think it is for us in other countries - the United States or Britain - to lay down the detail. ANDREW MARR: (over) The Americans are doing it. WILLIAM HAGUE: Yeah, but we can't lay down or enforce the details. Egypt is a sovereign nation. But what does an orderly transition look like? It looks like some mixture of a more broadly based government that includes people from outside the ruling elite of recent years; an ability to change their constitution so that people can have confidence in a free and fair electoral process, that doesn't necessarily rely on the parliament of today changing the constitution, that is 84% dominated by the ruling party; a clear timetable for elections and change … ANDREW MARR: Which could leave Mubarak there until September. That would be alright? WILLIAM HAGUE: Well it's some comb… Well again you're inviting me to arbitrate on when the President should be there. ANDREW MARR: (over) See I mean people will say basically are you on the side of the people who are protesting or are you on the side of the government? That's what people are asking. WILLIAM HAGUE: And we are on the side of a stable, democratic future for Egypt. We're not an Egyptian political party. We are a country. And so the United States, the United Kingdom, the European Union, we're all in the same position on this. We want to see those sorts of changes, so that Egypt doesn't fall into extremism or greater violence or more authoritarian government, but we cannot arbitrate on the daily events of that. ANDREW MARR: So it's not like … People have compared it to Eastern Europe when the wall was coming down and governments in the West were able to jump up and down and say this is great, we approve of this, but you are not going to do that in the case of Egypt? WILLIAM HAGUE: Well it is a form of that because I think what we can say and should say is this is a time of opportunity in the Middle East. There are some important dangers as well, and one of those of course is that the Middle East peace process becomes now a more uncertain matter. But it is … ANDREW MARR: (over) Let me just ask you specifically about that. WILLIAM HAGUE: (over) … but it is a time of opportunity. ANDREW MARR: Let me ask you about the peace process because that's sort of to one side of all of this, but it's hugely connected to what happens to Egypt. WILLIAM HAGUE: It is hugely and that is one of our central concerns in foreign policy. The Middle East peace process has in any case lost a lot of momentum in recent months. ANDREW MARR: (over) It's stuck at the moment, isn't it? WILLIAM HAGUE: We have been hugely disappointed by the failure of Israel to extend its settlement freeze. It's necessary for Israelis and Palestinians to make the compromises that are required to get the direct talks back on track. It's really necessary for the United States to continue to give strong leadership to the Middle East peace process, supported by European countries at the same time. And that is an alarm … This comes together as a very alarming development if over the next few months the Middle East peace process runs into the sand. So I would urge Israelis, Palestinians and the US administration to redouble their efforts to get this back on track. That what's happening in Egypt … ANDREW MARR: (over) Is this a dan… WILLIAM HAGUE: (over) … shouldn't be a distraction from the Middle East peace process. It underlines the urgency of carrying that forward. ANDREW MARR: And is this therefore a very dangerous moment for the region? WILLIAM HAGUE: Well yes - for that reason, above all, it is a dangerous moment. But here we're coming back to your earlier question about we celebrated the fall of Communism. ANDREW MARR: (over) Well I was going to ask about the Muslim … WILLIAM HAGUE: There is nevertheless of course in societies becoming freer, in political space opening up, there is the prospect actually of a more stable future for many countries of the Middle East, but they need to be able to develop civil society, political parties, greater freedom of expression. The problem in Egypt is that those things haven't been developed in recent years, and so now they haven't got an opposition, they haven't got a strong democratic secular opposition to talk to to come to an agreement about the future. ANDREW MARR: To put it, to put it very bluntly, people have said in the past "Mubarak's maybe a bastard but he's our bastard", and there is a danger when he goes that the Muslim Brotherhood - this very, very long established radical Islamist Movement in Egypt - will take over. Is that really what underpins your caution? WILLIAM HAGUE: Well there is a danger of that, and that is why it's not so important when elections happen in Egypt as those elections happening at a time when the great variety of views that we've seen on the streets of Egypt can be properly expressed through political parties. Because if an election was held in Egypt today, they haven't got the strong opposition democratic parties developed in order to play a real part in that. So it's the process of change over the coming months that matters more than the precise date … ANDREW MARR: Right. WILLIAM HAGUE: … of change and elections. And that is also part of my answer to your question about you know should Mubarak go today, tomorrow or whenever. ANDREW MARR: (over) Won't say. WILLIAM HAGUE: But it's the process now that really matters. ANDREW MARR: What about the Americans though because we've had rather astonishing newspaper front pages this morning? We've got an American envoy saying definitely Mubarak is going to stay and should stay until September to manage the transition. And then we've had another message through the State Department saying no, no, no, that's not our position. We are talking to Mubarak's number two and we're talking about a transition before that. Have you spoken to Hillary Clinton? WILLIAM HAGUE: Yes. ANDREW MARR: Do you understand …? Well can you explain to us what they're up to? WILLIAM HAGUE: Yes, I've spoken to Hillary Clinton and the Prime Minister spoke to President Obama last night. They are in the same position as us - respecting the fact that Egypt is a sovereign country, but saying both in our public comments and in all our private discussions with Egyptian leaders that you are going to have to do more than you've done so far realistically, looking at it from the outside, in order to draw people in Egypt together. And we cannot … ANDREW MARR: (over) So sorry, just to interrupt, it's not the case from your point of view or from the Americans' point of view that Mubarak should stay until September to oversee an orderly transition? That's not the case? WILLIAM HAGUE: We're not saying he should stay until September. Nor are we saying he should resign today. We're saying we don't decide who the President of Egypt is on any given day. But we can make the case for people to show, for the leaders in Egypt now to show that there's an irrevocable change taking place. You know the reason why the demonstrators in the square in Cairo say Mubarak must go today is they want a sign of irrevocable change. ANDREW MARR: Yes. WILLIAM HAGUE: They want to know it's not a con. ANDREW MARR: Not unreasonably. WILLIAM HAGUE: That is there really something going to happen. ANDREW MARR: Yeah, exactly. WILLIAM HAGUE: And it is vitally important for the authorities in Egypt to show something is really going to happen. ANDREW MARR: (over) But you're not encouraging him to go? WILLIAM HAGUE: Well we're saying through some combination of all the possible things that you could do - to invite opposition figures into government, to review the constitution in a new way, yes possibly to set up a new co-presidency - there are all these options. You in Egypt decide which of those you are going to … ANDREW MARR: (over) But take one of them. WILLIAM HAGUE: … but you are going to have to do several of those things if you're going to show Egyptians and the world that their legitimate grievances will be responded to. And by the way, while you're doing that avoid repression, harassment of journalists, abuse of the internet because these things are hugely damaging to Egypt and the wider world and they are wrong in principle. So that is the message of Western nations to Egypt, and I think to go further than that is to interfere in the sovereign matters of Egypt. To not say as much as that would be not doing our duty to the people there and to our own national interest. ANDREW MARR: There have been criticisms that the Foreign Office hasn't been fast enough on its feet when it comes to British tourists in Egypt trying to get home. WILLIAM HAGUE: Well we've been very fast on our feet. We've had much greater presence at Cairo Airport than other countries. As far as I'm aware, everybody who has wanted to leave has been able to leave. We've chartered two special flights for that. So I'm not getting much criticism from the ground in Egypt. We haven't changed the travel advice for the Red Sea resorts like Sharm El-Sheikh because the situation on the ground there hasn't changed. So actually I would like to congratulate our ambassador and the staff in Cairo who've dealt with a very difficult situation extremely well and assisted thousands of people successfully to leave the country. ANDREW MARR: Coming closer to home, David Cameron has garnered a lot of headlines for his speech on multiculturalism that he made in Germany. What is much less clear is what, if anything, it means in policy terms for your government? WILLIAM HAGUE: Well it means we've got to have common values. This is not just about policy; it's about values, by the way. Prime Ministers have a duty not just to change legislation and decide detailed policies, but to express our attitudes in this country. And David Cameron there is I think expressing the attitude that we need to have; that we are going to have to work harder to find common values … ANDREW MARR: (over) And yet if there is … WILLIAM HAGUE: (over) … among people of different backgrounds. ANDREW MARR: If there aren't policies involved, then it's a flywheel unconnected to a wider system? WILLIAM HAGUE: Yes. So he set out in his speech some of the policies that we will adopt - for instance towards any groups that flirt with extremism and don't stand up for our democratic values in this country. I thought Trevor Phillips, who you were talking to earlier, also had some very good points because we have to make sure that people have the opportunities in Britain, so they then can take part in making the most of our common … ANDREW MARR: (over) Was it unfortunate the speech coincided with English Defence League's march? WILLIAM HAGUE: No, no, no, no, I agree with Trevor about that. This is a Prime Minister giving a speech about the future of our country. That doesn't have to be rescheduled because some people have chosen to march down a street on that particular day. This is a speech that will endure over the months and years, long after people have forgotten what was going on that particular Saturday afternoon. ANDREW MARR: Your department and indeed you yourself have been under a bit of fire in the press recently for not having a clear or coherent view of what foreign policy for this country should be, and the context is that you don't have a very close relationship with the Obama administration and you are eurosceptic enough not to have a very close relationship with Europe either, and therefore we're sort of drifting around a bit. WILLIAM HAGUE: Well we're not at all … It is always interesting to see eight or nine months in what sort of criticism gets levelled at us, and there is this sort of criticism that there isn't a doctrine of foreign policy. Well look where previous doctrines have got us to. Where did the ethical foreign policy end up? Where does thinking it's all just humanitarian intervention end up? The world has changed and become an extraordinary network world, and what we are embarked on now - which is a hugely exciting thing - is building up Britain's relationships with the fastest growing areas of the world economy and of the world's diplomatic power in the East, in the South of the world. It's not a zero sum game though because doing that reinforces our relationship with the United States and with European countries. ANDREW MARR: I suspect some of the criticism, which is coming largely from the Conservative or Right side of the spectrum, is because people are disappointed that you are not eurosceptic enough. They thought they were going to get a real tough fighting eurosceptic Foreign Secretary and they don't feel that you are that. WILLIAM HAGUE: Well what have they got? We've got the EU referendum bill, which means if any government hands over any more power to the EU then there must be a referendum by law. ANDREW MARR: (over) There's lots of doubts. WILLIAM HAGUE: No, no, well this is unequivocally proven and we have, it's certainly ... ANDREW MARR: It's softer than it sounds. WILLIAM HAGUE: No, it's actually much tougher than it sounds, as the years will demonstrate. But are we forming alliances and friendships across Europe? Yes we are in our own national interest. The close relations we fought with the French and German leaders means that we've been able to cut the rise in the EU budget and state very clearly that that budget shouldn't be growing faster than inflation over time. That's vital to British taxpayers in the future. ANDREW MARR: What about the issue of giving prisoners the right to vote, which is something that comes from the European court, which has told the House of Commons which way to vote, and we gather that a lot of your colleagues in the Conservative side are going to vote against this measure, given a free vote. If it's voted down, do you then go back to the European Court and say listen, this won't wash, we're not going to do this stuff? WILLIAM HAGUE: Well look, when you say the European Court, this is not the European Union. ANDREW MARR: No, no. WILLIAM HAGUE: But there may be people listening at home who think this is part of the European Union. ANDREW MARR: (over) The European Court of Human Rights. WILLIAM HAGUE: (over) This is the European Court of Human Rights. ANDREW MARR: (over) Yes indeed. WILLIAM HAGUE: This goes back to signing that convention right back in 1950, and now they are interpreting the law in a new and I think deeply unhelpful way. I've always been opposed myself to prisoners having the vote. The government are intending to interpret this to do the minimum that is necessary, making sure that the … (Marr speaks over/inaudible) … making sure that the worst offenders … No, no, of course I'm part of the government and what we've decided to do … ANDREW MARR: (over) But you're against it. WILLIAM HAGUE: … given our great distaste for this, is to do the minimum that is necessary to comply with that ruling and not to extend the right to vote to the worst offenders in our … ANDREW MARR: (over) But you've got a free vote, I think, haven't you in the House of Commons? You've allowed a free vote in this? WILLIAM HAGUE: Well I'll be voting with my government colleagues because the world isn't an ideal place. We have to try to make sure yes that we comply … ANDREW MARR: (over) So you'll be voting one way but cheering for the other lot? WILLIAM HAGUE: No, no, no … ANDREW MARR: Yes you will be. Surely? WILLIAM HAGUE: No. You're allowed to say you don't like having to do something, but we have to do something about it. Otherwise of course the British taxpayer will be liable to pay enormous amounts of compensation in future court cases … ANDREW MARR: (over) And if you lose this … WILLIAM HAGUE: (over) … but not interpreting the court. ANDREW MARR: But if you lose this word, what happens then? WILLIAM HAGUE: Well, look, then you do have a clash between parliament in this country and a Convention on Human Rights that we signed sixty years ago, and of course we'll then have to decide what to do about that. But there is no escape from the responsibilities of the European Convention on Human Rights. ANDREW MARR: It's been reported that your department and other parts of the government have suffered cyber attacks by the Chinese. Is this right? WILLIAM HAGUE: Well certainly there are cyber attacks. I'm not going to attribute them to various countries, but clearly we have states and we have criminal organised crime now conducting cyber attacks in an exponentially rising way. And this is why I gave the speech I did on Friday at the Munich conference saying we are going to have to think about international norms and agreements on states deescalating this, on coming to some agreements about how cyber space should be regulated. ANDREW MARR: So some of these attacks are at least state attacks? WILLIAM HAGUE: Oh yes. ANDREW MARR: And give people who don't really understand this an impression about how serious this is for our own security. WILLIAM HAGUE: Oh this can be very serious because it can involve attempts to lift technical details out of industry that are part of the competitive advantage of this country, as well as part of our national security if you think of the defence industries, and then able to have access to all the details of some of our weaponry or equipment in another country. It's that sort of thing, as well as to break into our intelligence secrets or whatever else. It's attempt to do that sort of thing. But of course this affects every citizen in the end - the security of their banking system, access to their medical records, whatever it may be. ANDREW MARR: So it's serious stuff. WILLIAM HAGUE: This is one of the huge issues in the world over the next decade. It is running out of control. The British government will lead the way in trying to find international agreement on what to do about it. ANDREW MARR: William Hague, thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning. WILLIAM HAGUE: Thank you. INTERVIEW ENDS
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