Transcript of Trevor Phillips interview

On Sunday 6th February Andrew Marr interviewed the Chair of the Equalities and Human Rights Commission Trevor Phillips.

Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

ANDREW MARR:

Not so long ago, it would have been unsayable, but yesterday the Prime Minister declared "the death of multiculturalism" and instead put concepts such as integration and national identity firmly back on the agenda. One of the most prominent figures in the debate about immigration and race relations over the past thirty years has been Trevor Philips. He's now Chair of the Equalities and Human Rights Commission, which we read is about to be slashed. So what does he make of it all? He's with me now. Good morning. First of all, the David Cameron speech. It was pretty tough talking and it did declare the end of something that has been a project in this country for a long time. How do you react to that?

TREVOR PHILLIPS:

Well I don't think anybody can declare the end of something, and I think the Prime Minister may have made life a bit more difficult for himself by combining a speech about terrorism with one about integration. But I think there's a lot in what he said, but I think he also set a challenge for his own government. Where I think he's right is to say extremism, we've got to tackle it as a community. And that's not just Islamist extremism, but he referred to the English Defence League, who, though they are rather creepily plausible, are basically street thugs. I was delighted that he set as his benchmarks for British-ness human rights and equality. I think that's fantastic. But I think the issue really is what do you do about all of this? Now, and the role of the state here is very important. I don't think the state wants to get itself too involved in culture. So, for example, you know we're a country where if you come to my house, I will give you cassava pone, I will give you conkie, and I will give you garlic pork, which are Guyanese delicacies, and you will love it, Andrew. But I don't need a government circular to tell me to do that, and in that respect I think he's right.

ANDREW MARR:

So when he says, in terms, multiculturalism has failed, is he right?

TREVOR PHILLIPS:

I think that we are too obsessed with the words. And the reason I'm not going to answer the question directly is because we can then get into a debate about what we mean by multiculturalism. Do we mean the fact of a diverse society? Clearly not failed.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) Well can I put something specific?

TREVOR PHILLIPS:

(over) Do we mean what the state does? That's a different story.

ANDREW MARR:

Can I put something specific, which certainly a lot of Conservative MPs would say, which is that a lot of public money has gone to umbrella Muslim organisations in effect to buy them off, and that has not been followed by the work on the ground to de-radicalise and integrate people into this country that ought to have happened and actually it's money that's been thrown away?

TREVOR PHILLIPS:

Well I think somebody would have to produce some evidence about that, but that's really an issue of did the money do what it was supposed to do? I don't think any government … anybody's against the argument that if you're going to spend public money, it should be for public ends, which means encouraging integration. But you see I don't think that's a big issue. I think the issue for the state is a much more important one right now, which is, people don't choose not to integrate mostly. There are a few people on the edges who basically don't want to mix with anybody else, but most people, if they don't mix, it is because they don't have a choice. And there are two things which make that happen: one is discrimination - so if we're going to back this up, we have to have a really renewed and tough battle against discrimination; and the second will be the effect of economic policy. Cuts may end up isolating communities and the two million jobs that government says it wants to create - if those jobs are not equally accessible to people from Pakistani communities, from black communities, indeed from disabled people and from women, then actually that is what will fracture our society.

ANDREW MARR:

There was an Asian British guy on News 24 a couple of hours ago saying that he thought there was a form of reverse colonialism on this country; that communities were coming over to this country and existing utterly unconnected with the rest of the country, particularly in some of the big Northern cities. That is a fair criticism, isn't it?

TREVOR PHILLIPS:

I think it's part of the immigrant experience everywhere. In America, as you will know, actually there are communities who stay like that for a century. We have a much better history here. Actually most migrant communities come and eventually … Everybody else adjusts, accommodates, and they change to become a British version of what they are. And that's the way things work. I have no doubt that that is what will happen with Muslim communities. But let's bear … The key thing here is you know if you take the biggest Muslim community - Pakistanis - 25% of Pakistani men are taxi drivers; 75% of Pakistani and Bangladeshi women are economically inactive. This is …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) And that's the issue, you would say? Okay.

TREVOR PHILLIPS:

(over) That's the issue. There issue here is not some sort of abstract culture. It is do they get the chance?

ANDREW MARR:

Yuh.

TREVOR PHILLIPS:

The place most of us integrate in the workplace, Andrew. So if people can't get jobs, you can't expect them to integrate.

ANDREW MARR:

Two obvious big discrimination stories around at the moment. One is the now notorious Jeremy Clarkson comment about flatulent Mexicans, which has caused a bit of trouble. But the other is a story about a Conservative MP with cerebral palsy who seems, we think, to have had a very hard time in the House of Commons itself.

TREVOR PHILLIPS:

Well I'm glad you put those two together. You know I am not going to get hot under the collar again about schoolboy provocation, which frankly is organised so that we can get into a ruck and sell more DVDs for Jeremy Clarkson. Jeremy's rich enough. I don't want to get into …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) He sells enough DVDs already?

TREVOR PHILLIPS:

Yeah, I don't need to get into that. But if you really want to see me jump and down …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) You're not bothered about what he said particularly?

TREVOR PHILLIPS:

I am bothered about what he said because I think it's juvenile, it's vulgar, you know it's unacceptable, but that's for broadcasters and columnists to argue about. It's not for the law. We need to deal with more serious things. The other issue that you dealt with, which is the Paul Maynard MP problem where he was obviously being mocked (according to his account) by other members of parliament, that to me is shocking. I felt physically sick when I read about it. You know if that had happened in a football ground, the people doing mocking him would have been on CCTV and they would have been whipped out the ground and not let back. That's one for the Speaker to look at as part of his drive to increase diversity.

ANDREW MARR:

You have been told by the government you have to absolutely slash jobs on the Commission. Your budget's being taken down by perhaps more than a third, perhaps even 60% according to some reports. How many people are you going to have to get rid of and what is that going to do to your role as an organisation?

TREVOR PHILLIPS:

Well I regret to say the story isn't quite as exciting as it seems. We are, together with the government's own Equalities Office, going to take a hit, but I don't think it's going to be any different to any other public organisation. There is an issue about what we do and what the government does, and depending on how the settlement ends up, we'll have fewer or more. But I think the bigger question for us is how do we do our job most effectively? And I think that the last couple of years has changed the environment dramatically. Two reasons: one, I think public sentiment has changed.

ANDREW MARR:

You see some people would say you don't need a Commission at all; that you've got strong laws now, the public mood has changed.

TREVOR PHILLIPS:

Somebody's got to enforce the laws. And actually the interesting … My slogan for this is we want people to do the right thing when we're not in the room, but they need to know we're outside the room ready to step in. So, for example, there's been a change. Sky, they did the right thing on the Andy Gray/Richard Keys thing, but we didn't have to ring them up. They did the right thing.

ANDREW MARR:

Okay.

TREVOR PHILLIPS:

So we're in a different place where we can be more proactive, preventive. That's our job.

ANDREW MARR:

Okay. Trevor Phillips, thank you very much indeed for joining us.

INTERVIEW ENDS

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