Transcript of Alan Johnson interview

On Sunday 28th November Andrew Marr interviewed Shadow Chancellor Alan Johnson.

Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

ANDREW MARR:

Now only nine weeks into the job and already Ed Miliband's being warned and he's running out of time to give a clear sense of who he is and what he stands for, where he wants to lead the Labour Party. Well Alan Johnson's been around this course a few times. Nobody's refused to stand for Labour Leader more often than he. One of Labour's most experienced hands, a cabinet minister in four different departments, now Shadow Chancellor crafting Labour's economic policy but with very firm views of his own about issues such as the 50p tax rate and a graduate tax, he's with me now.

ALAN JOHNSON:

It's five actually just to put you right. (laughs)

ANDREW MARR:

Five. I'm so sorry. My counting's never been the finest. I said at the end there that you had very strong views of your own about the 50p tax rate and indeed the graduate tax. Is that still the case?

ALAN JOHNSON:

Well, look, we've talked about this. Ed has made it absolutely clear that we need a 50p tax rate now. That's why the government have adopted our policy. We will need it for the foreseeable future. I can see no circumstances under which we won't need it at the next General Election, but we'll look at it at the time. That's what Ed's said and that's what we'll do. I mean you know I'd like to reduce taxes. The priority would be to reduce taxes for people on lower incomes.

ANDREW MARR:

Because this is a philosophical question, isn't it, not simply a practical question of making the beans add up? He thinks that a 50p tax rate is sort of economically necessary at the moment, but also socially and politically good, and you don't think that.

ALAN JOHNSON:

And that's been a very consistent approach from Ed about the fairness of society - the way, the messages that this sends out.

ANDREW MARR:

But you don't agree with that.

ALAN JOHNSON:

Look, what me and Ed agree on is that we need a 50p tax rate now, we'll need it at the next General Election, but we'll look at it closer to the time. Taxes … I mean if you think about the 10p tax rate, we were criticised for removing the 10p tax rate - in many senses quite rightly - but actually we'd introduced it in the first place and we'd introduced it before national minimum wage was up and running, before working tax credits were working properly, and it was very much about ensuring that we had a fairer society. So all political parties look at tax in that context, but they also look at it pragmatically in terms of the circumstances at the time.

ANDREW MARR:

So when Ed Miliband says that he's not ashamed to be a Socialist and that he wants to make fairness - and presumably squeezing the people at the top a central part of his thinking - and also says that New Labour is over, you're comfortable with all of that?

ALAN JOHNSON:

Yes. He didn't say about squeezing people at the top, incidentally. I am very comfortable. We are part of a party that is a democratic socialist party. It's in our constitution. And I think what Ed's doing … I mean the reason why there are these attacks on Ed from our political enemies is they're getting worried about him. And they should be as well because …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) Well a lot of …

ALAN JOHNSON:

… in many senses, in many senses there were people who were underestimating the steel in Ed. You need steel to be the leader of a party, and what he is demonstrating is he has that steel. He also has that confidence to do things at his own pace in his own time, and I think it's very important for us in the party to do that the right way. We tried to kind of do a bit of mid-air refuelling in government. We tried to kind of revitalise the party in government. It was very difficult to do and we failed. Now that … We got 29% of the vote in the last election. No party won it, but we certainly lost it. Now's our opportunity to do that.

ANDREW MARR:

So you've got a blank sheet of paper; you don't agree about tax quite clearly; there's disagreements about the graduate tax. How long can you be a blank sheet of paper …

ALAN JOHNSON:

(over) We do …

ANDREW MARR:

… and an effective opposition?

ALAN JOHNSON:

We do agree about tax for the reasons I just said. We absolutely agree on the need for the 50p rate now and the need for the 50p rate at the next General Election, but we'll look at it closer to the time. Look, when you say a blank sheet of paper.

ANDREW MARR:

Well that was his words, not mine.

ALAN JOHNSON:

Yeah, but you can't say that we're going to renew our policy and twenty people, a small elite clique called the shadow cabinet are going to do it all by themselves. And you can't say … And so you say we're going to throw this open and include the wider party and beyond that - the public as well, as Ed said in his speech yesterday. And then if you say oh we're going to have this complete review and this debate about our future, but incidentally here's the blueprint that we've already decided for you, then that would be the wrong way to look at it. So …

ANDREW MARR:

Sure, but there's a sense of direction. The question is …

ALAN JOHNSON:

Well there is a sense of direction and Ed's given that sense of direction and he gave that sense of direction because we've had a leadership debate.

ANDREW MARR:

So where are you going?

ALAN JOHNSON:

We spent five months in the leadership debate as well and that was very much about reaffirming our principles and the kind of party we want to be and using a period outside of government to think this through, so we're ready to come back into government and fight this …

ANDREW MARR:

So do you understand the direction in which Labour is going under Ed Miliband?

ALAN JOHNSON:

Yes.

ANDREW MARR:

Which is what?

ALAN JOHNSON:

It is about the eradication of poverty, it is about a fairer society, it is about greater equality. It's about translating those values and principles that we have into the circumstances we find ourselves in at the moment - in particular given the economic crisis, which is going to dominate this parliament. It's about how you ensure that you bring the fiscal deficit down without changing fundamentally the kind of principles that our society's been based on.

ANDREW MARR:

So that is clear …

ALAN JOHNSON:

For the government, there's a large element of this being an ideological objective to shrink the state not because there's pragmatic reasons to do it, but because here's a chance to get rid of universal benefits, here's a chance to tackle issues on welfare reform that are necessary but in some cases are driven by a sense of feeling … a sense that actually that's a way to save money rather than that's a way to genuinely move people from welfare to work.

ANDREW MARR:

When you put it that way, it's clear that under Ed Miliband the Labour Party is to the left of where it was in its New Labour years.

ALAN JOHNSON:

Well I … We're a left of centre party. The whole point about the New Labour years was that was then.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) I'm interested in the change from the past.

ALAN JOHNSON:

When we came into government in 97, there was no minimum wage. People were earning poverty pay. People were being paid £1.50 and if we'd made the minimum wage £1.50, a quarter of a million people would have got a pay rise, incidentally. No protection for workers in terms of rights to public holidays. 16 weeks maternity leave, paid maternity leave. Now it's moving towards a year. No paternity leave at all. All of these things had to be put right. At the same time as we had long waiting lists in the NHS, we had dreadful education standards. Twenty percent of kids in my city …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) That's an eloquent defence of New Labour.

ALAN JOHNSON:

All of that had to be done in 97, all of that had to be done.

ANDREW MARR:

Sure.

ALAN JOHNSON:

Now all of that's been adopted by the current government. They adopt the minimum wage; they say international development has to be a priority. Wouldn't have said that thirteen years ago. They accept the family friendly policies. All of that's changed.

ANDREW MARR:

Sure.

ALAN JOHNSON:

Now we have to look at the new frontiers.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) That's a defence of the past. What I'm asking is what's the difference between …

ALAN JOHNSON:

(over) No, but you're saying …

ANDREW MARR:

… where you're going and where you came from?

ALAN JOHNSON:

Well because you can't … When you say that New Labour, it looks like we're moving to the left of New Labour. We're a left of centre party tackling the problems of 97 from the left of centre and tackling the problems we've got now from a progressive left of centre. We've seen that the Liberal Democrats for all their guff about being progressive, it's … you know in the comfort of opposition, they said lots of things. Now we find arts, humanities, social sciences having all funding withdrawn. We find tuition fees now being used to substitute the taxpayers' contribution.

ANDREW MARR:

As part of this reform of the Labour Party, change of the Labour Party, the idea is that this can be open to people who are not Labour Party members, Ed Miliband was …

ALAN JOHNSON:

Yes.

ANDREW MARR:

Is that particularly to encourage angry Liberal Democrats who don't like what the coalition is doing to come over and be part of your changes?

ALAN JOHNSON:

Well we don't have to do anything to encourage that because they're coming over in droves actually. No, it's saying if we're going to have a proper policy analysis, we can't just do it in the closed world of the Labour movement. We have to open it up. We have to, if we're talking about the National Health Service, we have to get physicians and clinicians and people who work in the NHS whether they're members or not to put their view forward. And you know I think it's …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) It's about opening up generally.

ALAN JOHNSON:

… Peter Hain and Liam Byrne leading this, but I think the way we do that will ensure that our policy is much more rigorous than if we'd just done it within the party.

ANDREW MARR:

How many votes did you have in the leadership election?

ALAN JOHNSON:

How many votes did I ..

ANDREW MARR:

Yeah.

ALAN JOHNSON:

Three, I think, yeah.

ANDREW MARR:

Three. Do you think that's wrong?

ALAN JOHNSON:

Two too many.

ANDREW MARR:

Two too many. You would say … So you want to go to a proper one member one vote leadership?

ALAN JOHNSON:

Well Ed's clear about this. I don't know anyone in the party who would defend a system that you know was … As I said before, it's kind of half finished and it was alright, but you know you can't defend one person having three votes or four votes or maybe five votes. How you actually remodel it so that you do … I mean I'm not for incidentally breaking the link with the union. I never have. I was saying these things when I was a trade union leader thirteen, fourteen years ago. I'm not for breaking the link with the trade union. I think it's really important and very strong. But I am for a system that means one member one vote within an electoral college system. We'll see how it works out. We can do it in an electoral college system. And I don't agree that Conservatives and Lib-Dems should vote for the Leader of the Labour Party. I mean if they would reciprocate, that would be great, but I doubt if they will.

ANDREW MARR:

Okay. Let's move to the wider picture at the moment. Clearly the euro in severe trouble at the moment - crisis talks still going on in Ireland. You were a supporter of the euro, British membership of the euro. Presumably you're delighted that we're not members now?

ALAN JOHNSON:

No, I wasn't a huge supporter actually. I wasn't Danny Alexander or Nick Clegg. (Marr laughs) No, I mean you know we took the view, there was no argument in principle against a single currency. There were lots of arguments in practice, particularly for the British economy. And you know the Conservatives say oh we kept Britain out of the euro. No, they didn't. They were in opposition. They had no control whatsoever over this. We kept us out of the euro for very good, sound … Not for some kind of ideological you know button pins with a pound sign and all that - not for those kind of old school views - but because pragmatically this was not a good step for our country.

ANDREW MARR:

And when it comes to the Irish crisis and the straightforward Britain to Ireland aid that's being given, do you agree?

ALAN JOHNSON:

Yes.

ANDREW MARR:

Do you think George Osborne is playing it broadly right?

ALAN JOHNSON:

I think he's right to give assistance to Ireland. There are a number of questions beneath that. You know what is this level of assistance? If we're paying through the IMF because we're big contributors to it, and we're paying for the European Stabilisation Mechanism, why are we contributing for a bilateral loan as well? Or are they different things? We don't know the exact money yet and we don't know the detail. We don't know the rate of interest, we don't know what conditions are going to be set. But I think we're right to help a friend in need and I think it would damage this country - they're our fifth biggest export market - damage our country if we didn't help Ireland to resolve their problems.

ANDREW MARR:

What about the euro more generally? How concerned are you about its future?

ALAN JOHNSON:

Well I am concerned about contagion, about what's happening with Spain and Portugal. But you know on May 20th, I think it was the date, Alistair Darling was our chancellor when the meeting took place with euro ministers and we didn't put a penny into the bailout of Greece. It was for Eurozone countries to do that and I believe that's where the fundamental first point of call needs to be.

ANDREW MARR:

And how damaging, how frightened should we be in this country about the euro collapsing, or should we be rather hoping that it does?

ALAN JOHNSON:

No, we should certainly not be hoping that it does and we should be worried about the Eurozone and about … Because this is happening at the same time as we're still feeling the effects of the global economic crisis. So I think William Hague's comments were absolutely …

ANDREW MARR:

The "who knows" comments?

ALAN JOHNSON:

Who knows. I mean actually I've got a lot of respect for William Hague, but for a man in his position as Foreign Secretary to shrug his shoulders and say you know "Who knows?" is kind of almost his mindset was back as Leader of the Opposition in 2000, not as the Foreign Secretary in 2010.

ANDREW MARR:

Alright. For now, thank you very much indeed for coming all this way, Alan Johnson, through the snow.

ALAN JOHNSON:

Pleasure.

INTERVIEW ENDS

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