On Sunday 19 September Andrew Marr interviewed Lord Patten, the Prime Minister's personal representative to the Papal visit. Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.
ANDREW MARR:
The stage is set for the last big event of the Pope's visit to Britain - the Mass at Cofton Park in Birmingham - at which he will beatify the Victorian intellectual and Catholic convert Cardinal Newman. The background to this visit hasn't been easy with the shadow of the child sex abuse scandal, un-diplomatic comments by papal aides, not to mention centuries of conflict and distrust between the Roman Catholic and Anglican Churches. But the visit itself seems to have gone really pretty well. Playing no small part in that was its co-ordinator, Lord Patten, who joins me now from Cofton Park. Good morning, Lord Patten, and thank you for joining us. Can I … LORD PATTEN: It's nice to be here. ANDREW MARR: Can I start by just asking you about Cardinal Newman and the importance of this moment of beatification. He doesn't become a saint, but he's beatified. What does it mean for British Catholics, do you think? LORD PATTEN: Well I think Cardinal Newman was one of the great figures of the 19th century. When he died, the Manchester Guardian (as it then was) which was no supporter described him as 'the greatest Englishman', and he was certainly - as the Guardian again argued - probably one of the greatest writers of the English language in the 19th century. I think his spiritual autobiography, 'Apologia Pro Vita Sua', is probably the greatest spiritual autobiography since 'Confessions' by Saint Augustine. So he was a really remarkable figure - a figure of conscience, and should be a figure who would be regarded as a hero by liberals as well as others. He also wrote the best book anybody's written about university education, so a remarkable man and I think it's wonderful that he's being celebrated in this way. ANDREW MARR: An intellectual of course, like the current Pope, whose central message to the political leaders in Westminster was very much that they cut away Christianity and faith at their peril from modern life. And he seemed to be pretty tough on the secular nature of British society these days, particularly when it comes to things like gay adoption and gay marriage and so on - asking them for a rethink. Do you think there will be any kind of rethink, any longer lasting result of this visit for the political classes? LORD PATTEN: I very much hope that what the Pope will have started is a serious discussion rather than seeing the sort of insults we've had from some anti-Catholics or anti-Pope figures in the last few days. I think what he wants is a discussion with secular society, to point out what faith and reason can do to buttress one another. And he made a rather telling point during that remarkable speech in Westminster Hall where Thomas More, a victim of conscience, was of course tried. He pointed out that after the international financial crash, people sat around saying how can we live in a society which allows that sort thing to happen - a lot of debate about the ethical foundations of capitalism and of market economics. And I think that was just one example of the way in which religion does still, ethics do have a role in public debate. Not necessarily arguing that religion has every single answer to contemporary problems or that religious leaders should impose a stamp on that debate, but just saying that there is a serious discussion and debate to be had and it should be had in a tolerant and generous spirited way. ANDREW MARR: We've seen, as I mentioned earlier on, this long history of mistrust between Catholics and Anglicans in Britain. Do you think that is now ending? Do you think this visit has changed that? We saw a rather more … a rather warmer relationship perhaps between Archbishop Rowan Williams and the Pope than we'd been led to expect. LORD PATTEN: Well there were a couple of things that really moved me during this visit. The first was not first the Archbishop of Canterbury, but the remarks made by Dr Jonathan Sacks, the Chief Rabbi, at an interfaith meeting - the most beautifully expressed statement about the relationship between faiths. Then of course there was Rowan Williams and the extraordinary service in Westminster Abbey. And I think there is a real meeting of two great intellects in Rowan Williams and the Pope. I think, so far as one can tell from outside, they like and respect one another and want to work together. And the service in Westminster Abbey was absolutely stunning. I'm married to a member of the Church of England and for us it was a really moving moment. ANDREW MARR: You were mentioning simplistic comments earlier on. You don't think that you're standing in the middle of a third world country undermined by faithlessness, do you? LORD PATTEN: No I don't think this is a third world country at all and I think a lot of the people here would have taken exception to the suggestion that we're a faithless lot in this country. I don't think that's true at all and unfortunately people sometimes, even cardinals, say things that they perhaps regret afterwards. It was very surprising coming from Cardinal Kasper because he's been a great figure in the ecumenical movement. But what I do think is true is that some of the edge to the debate about this visit has been slightly unpleasant. If you look at some of the language of the allegedly liberal intellectuals we've heard in the last few days, it's something I think which they will probably in retrospect be ashamed of. And if you compare that with the very serious things which leaders of faith groups have been saying, then I think the gulf is remarkable. I think for me what has been most extraordinary about this visit is a reminder of how faith does matter to so many millions of people in this country. You see at these services every walk of life, every colour, every age and faith is an important part in their life, and that's just a statement of what it is in modern Britain. ANDREW MARR: Okay. Lord Patten, thank you very much. Enjoy the mass and thank you for joining us this morning. LORD PATTEN: Thank you very much indeed. I hope the weather improves. ANDREW MARR: Indeed. INTERVIEW ENDS
| 
E-mail this to a friend 
Printable version 
Bookmark with:
What are these?