On Sunday 12 September Andrew Marr interviewed Acting Leader of the Labour party Harriet Harman. Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.
ANDREW MARR:
The Labour Party leadership race is now in its final phase. Policy debates may have received scant attention, but it does look set to be a gripping fight to the finish with the pundits claiming, as we've just heard, that the battle between the Miliband brothers is very close indeed, and of course it's a slightly unpredictable electoral system. But the Labour Party does have a Leader and she is still boss lady for another fortnight. Harriet Harman, welcome. HARRIET HARMAN: Thank you. ANDREW MARR: You're splashed all over the News of the World this morning. Not in that sort of way, but in a story about the peerage issue and the resignation honours list for Gordon Brown. There are some people in it who've paid lots of money to the Labour Party and it says that you're not going to sign off because you're worried about cash for honours and so on. HARRIET HARMAN: Well I haven't actually seen this story, but if there is … ANDREW MARR: Tell us about the issue then. HARRIET HARMAN: Well there was a dissolution honours list and there was a working peers honours list before Gordon Brown left office, and no doubt at some point there will be another list of peers into the House of Lords. ANDREW MARR: There's a resignation honours list that a prime minister, ex-prime minister is allowed as it were, and the question is whether well off donors to the Labour Party ought to be on that list given all that's happened. HARRIET HARMAN: Well I don't think there's going to be a resignation honours list. ANDREW MARR: Oh really? HARRIET HARMAN: Well I don't think there's going to be a resignation honours list, but there will be in due course another list of working peers. ANDREW MARR: Okay. A lot to talk about in terms of the Labour Party, but before we turn to the Labour Party just the wider issue of these cuts coming down the road. We were hearing Bob Crow in full flood not so long ago. The Labour Party has taken a reasonably hostile position to the timing at least of these cuts. We now read there's two and a half billion coming off the welfare budget. What is going to be the mood, the political mood of the autumn do you think? HARRIET HARMAN: Well I think very concerned indeed. Concerned that the way that the Conservatives, supported by the Lib-Dems, are falling over themselves to make cuts in public spending means that that's a threat to the economy and jobs; it's a threat to public services; and now we see, with the latest leak, that it's actually a threat to the most vulnerable and even disabled people. So I think there's a very great deal of concern. And Bob Crow is absolutely right to say none of this was in their manifesto and much of it is specifically broken promises. I mean … ANDREW MARR: He's in full militant flood. Are you going to be … Do you feel militant about this? HARRIET HARMAN: Well we feel very concerned indeed, yes, about threats to jobs, and we don't accept the argument that somehow this is entirely necessary to cut the deficit at this speed. We think it's actually a threat to the economy. And the arguments that the big society can take the place of public services, we think are disingenuous. So to that extent, yes we do feel militant about it. We're concerned about the effect on people. ANDREW MARR: And if we see kind of huge demonstrations with the trade unions and possibly strikes this autumn, will you be shoulder to shoulder? HARRIET HARMAN: Well I think as far as strikes are concerned, no-one wants to see strikes. Management don't want to see strikes; people who use services don't want to see strikes; and actually people who go to work in order to work hard and earn a living, they don't want to go on strike. But obviously people have got to have the right to strike. It's heavily legally regulated, but there is that right to strike. But as far as actual public services are concerned, I think we will see trade unions campaigning alongside local communities when vital public services are threatened. And we don't accept that this is necessary for the sake of the deficit. The deficit's got to be cut, but the Tories (supported by the Lib-Dems) are going far beyond what is necessary because ideologically they see public services as a millstone round the country's neck and we see them as a vital part … ANDREW MARR: Well of course. HARRIET HARMAN: … of what makes a good society. ANDREW MARR: And your message to the TUC tomorrow, particularly on the question of striking or not striking, politically to protest against these cuts? HARRIET HARMAN: Well I think you know, as I've said, we support the right to strike, but nobody wants to see strikes. What's much better is for management and unions to be able to agree together. But we worked in partnership with the trade unions when we were in government and we expect to work in partnership with them in opposition, especially to protect people's jobs, their living standards and vital public services. ANDREW MARR: Political strike's wrong though? HARRIET HARMAN: Well strikes are industrial action and they are to protect members' terms, conditions, their job security; and they are about action at work, industrial action. ANDREW MARR: Let's turn to the Labour Party and the leadership contest. It's right, is it, that this goes absolutely up to the wire? You won't know and the candidates won't know until the very last minute, actually at the Labour Party conference, who's won? HARRIET HARMAN: Well nobody knows, and you know all the predictions are just that. And I think a lot of people … ANDREW MARR: (over) So you're going to be sitting in a room together, waiting to make … and they've all got their speeches, and they're really not going to know the result? HARRIET HARMAN: Well they won't know the result. No, they absolutely won't. And a lot of Labour Party members are still making up their mind between the different candidates because we have a strong field of candidates and this is a contest within a very good team. So all the predictions, you can forget about them. Nobody knows. ANDREW MARR: And we've heard Tony Blair making it pretty clear that he's a David Miliband type of politician and other people going for Ed Miliband and all the rest of it. They all do seem to say though that this is going to be a crossroads election for the Labour Party. It is a genuine ideological or political choice. HARRIET HARMAN: Well I don't necessarily see it like that. I think it's a very highly competitive contest, but I don't think that there is any appetite for sectarianism or division within the party. So it is a hard fought contest, but I don't think that there's any sectarianism within it. ANDREW MARR: And what about the shape of the Labour Party itself because it was a pretty hammering defeat and you've gone through this long period where perhaps it hasn't been the best thing for the Labour Party? There hasn't been a great deal of discussion about policies in this leadership contest. It's been a bit of a kind of beauty contest, hasn't it? HARRIET HARMAN: Well I think you know it was obviously very disappointing indeed not to win the election and there were many predictions that the party would fall apart, become demoralised, disintegrate and become divided. But that is absolutely not what's happened. We've had a very vigorous leadership contest. We've also seen the fastest increase in our membership ever. Since May 6th more than 32,000 people have joined the Labour Party. Many Labour supporters, but a third of those are former Lib-Dems who are just dismayed about the betrayal that they feel that the Lib-Dems are supporting the Tory government. ANDREW MARR: But those two … HARRIET HARMAN: And the other thing that we've seen, if I might say, is we've seen a very dynamic and united team of the shadow cabinet and Labour MPs in parliament already beginning to hold the Tory government to account. And also we're winning by-elections. In the votes cast since May 6th, Labour has polled many more votes than the Tories. So we're already fighting back. ANDREW MARR: Those two brothers though, they do represent different paths, don't they? I mean no-one would say that they've got the same politics. HARRIET HARMAN: Well they're different people and they've got different approaches. But I think if it's being characterised as a sort of Left Right division, I think it's much more subtle, much more complicated than that. They've both got different strengths. All the candidates have got different strengths. And I think the party knows that when the leader is chosen, everybody will unite behind them. ANDREW MARR: And you've got to keep out of this because you're the leader at the moment and all the rest of it. Have you cast your vote? HARRIET HARMAN: I'm not voting in this election. ANDREW MARR: You're not voting at all? HARRIET HARMAN: No, I'm not voting. And I've got enough on my hands to be making sure that the party is in great shape to hand onto the new leader. That's my responsibility. ANDREW MARR: And speaking of leaders, what about the old leader? Is Gordon Brown going to be seen at conference? Are we going to see a sort of farewell speech from him? HARRIET HARMAN: I'm sure that the party will expect to be able to thank Gordon for what he did in all the years as Chancellor as well as in his years as Prime Minister. Yes, I'm sure he'll be there. ANDREW MARR: On one of the many controversies around at the moment, the Andy Coulson affair, are you going to be pursuing this in the House of Commons? Are you still wanting to see another inquiry? What do you think is going to happen next? HARRIET HARMAN: Well last Thursday, without a vote because nobody opposed it, the House of Commons agreed to refer the question of phone hacking of MPs phones and intercepting their phones to the Standards and Privileges Committee. And I think if you saw what was said last Thursday, it was Conservatives - Nadine Dorries, Nicholas Soames; it was Lib-Dems like Simon Hughes as well as Labour people protesting. And I think the fact that Andy Coulson is Director of Communications, chosen by the Prime Minister, is a reflection on David Cameron's judgement. And if David Cameron saw what MPs from all sides of the house were saying … ANDREW MARR: (over) Do they feel terrorised by the media, as one of your colleagues Tom Watson said - red top media? HARRIET HARMAN: Well I think that there is a great deal of concern that at a time when obviously (and the information commissioner said this) that interception of phones of MPs was rife - that the Prime Minister chose a Fleet Street editor whose paper was involved in this, to put him at the heart of Downing Street. ANDREW MARR: Okay. Thank you very much indeed for joining us, Harriet Harman. INTERVIEW ENDS
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