On Sunday 12 September Andrew Marr interviewed RMT boss Bob Crow. Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.
ANDREW MARR:
The annual TUC conference is getting underway in Manchester and one question dominates the agenda: how should the unions respond to the spending cuts which are coming down the track? Hardliners want concerted strike action and soon. Inevitably there's talk of an autumn of discontent and then a winter of discontent as well. I'm joined now from Manchester by the Leader of the RMT transport union, Bob Crow. Good morning, Mr Crow. Thank you for joining us. BOB CROW: Good morning. ANDREW MARR: You've talked about a "class warfare" being unleashed as a result of these spending cuts. What would you like to see the TUC agree this weekend? BOB CROW: Well number one, I think people will have forgotten (not workers haven't forgotten, but certainly the main media have forgotten) that this crisis has been caused by bankers' corruption - the same bankers that are still getting massive bonuses at the expense of working people - and we've now found ourselves in a situation where this country basically has spent £160 billion more than it got in. Their first line of attack, this government, is not to go to the bankers who caused the crisis, but go to the people in society like nurses, school dinner ladies, railway workers, transport workers and workers in the public sector, and build a campaign up now by saying that basically public sector workers are lazy, there's no need for them, they're on gold-plated pensions, and these are the people, the frontline staff that provide services for people. Now I've got to say in society those people that caused the problems should have to pay for the problems … ANDREW MARR: Right. BOB CROW: … and what we should be looking at - yes, the deficit's got to be paid back, but let's start looking, for example, at the tax evasion that goes on and tax avoidance where people are putting their money into a hundred places around the world and avoiding paying tax in this country. They're the ones that we should start looking at, first of all - not waging war on a single parent over a housing estate or someone who's disabled or infirm. ANDREW MARR: And you want generalised strike action this autumn to protest about that? That's what your … BOB CROW: No, no, no. ANDREW MARR: … that's what your motion says. That's what your motion says. BOB CROW: Well hold on, let me explain myself. Well let me explain the situation. Our members took action this week in London because they're taking 800 jobs out of the ticket offices. And these people just don't sell tickets; they work on the stations. These are the same people that when the terrorist attacks took place in London played the crucial role of taking the travelling public off the trains and onto a safe place. What we're saying is that we're not calling … ANDREW MARR: (over) But what about the generalised strike action? BOB CROW: Well I'll just come onto that. If there is a concerted effort by this new government to attack workers in all different parts of society, then my belief is that if one group of workers are taking action on one day, another group of workers are taking action on another day, that we should coordinate that resistance to defend working men and working women. ANDREW MARR: Brendan Barber argues that at the moment the public by and large supports the cuts for the deficit and that any action this autumn would be too early; that you really need to wait until say March, into the spring before you respond. BOB CROW: Well, look, if there's no attacks takes place till next March or next April or next May, that will be the time when the resistance takes place. I think it's going to be earlier than then. And the reality is that we've not even seen any cuts yet. All we've been told about is spoken about them. And if you see how far these attacks are going to be - taking out, for example, 45,000 police officers - what do you want? Do you want bankers to have bonuses, or do you want police on the street? Do you want school dinner ladies or do you want these bankers to carry on getting large sums of money? And the fact is that working people, once they see the scale of attacks - not just on those who are fortunate to work, but on the unemployed, the disabled and those people that can't work - I think there's going to be a reaction because what we're going to see basically … ANDREW MARR: (over) It's not long after … BOB CROW: … is the same attacks that took place in workers in Greece and so forth. ANDREW MARR: Yuh. It's not long since the General Election, however. Still general support for this government. Are you going to alienate the public? Aren't you going to put people off even your own cause by going for early strikes? BOB CROW: Well where was it in the manifesto from the Liberal Party or the Tory Party or the coalition that they was going to get rid of police officers? Where was it they was going to put a freeze on pay for two years? Where was it they was going to put the working age up to 72 years of age? All these are fundamental attacks, and what we're going to see basically is the National Health Service under attack, schooling under attack, and all aspects of working life, what people really want. Ask someone do they want the bankers to have a bonus or do they want their hospital to be kept open or do they want more police on the streets or they want the railways? That will be the answer. The fact is at the moment people don't think that the cuts are going to affect them because they're someone else's cuts. Once those cuts affect the individuals concerned, there will be a reaction. ANDREW MARR: You are making there a political argument. The biggest selling newspaper this morning, The News of the World on a Sunday, says that this is "industrial suicide" and it's the "return of the charge of the dinosaurs" and that "Britain simply can't afford a winter of discontent or an autumn of discontent". BOB CROW: Well that paper would say that. It doesn't recognise trade unions. ANDREW MARR: Nonetheless it's probably speaking for quite a lot of people. BOB CROW: Well it's speaking for people it wants to get its message across to. But the reality is why do people join a trade union? You join a trade union for job security. You join a trade union to get the best possible terms and conditions. And if your terms and conditions are going to be attacked, if your job's going to be attacked, then you've got two options really: sit back and let them just attack you, or stand up and fight. One thing's for sure: if you sit back, they will carry on walking over you. But one thing's for certain: that the only way that you can resist those attacks is by standing up and fighting. And that's what a trade union's about. What's the point in being a trade union if you ain't going to defend your members? ANDREW MARR: In your guts, do you think it's going to be a turbulent, aggressive sort of autumn? BOB CROW: Well we don't want a turbulent, aggressive autumn or a turbulent, aggressive summer or spring. What we really want is to defend our members' terms and conditions. If you sit down with the employer and the employer's reasonable and say you know not enough money's coming in, we need to produce more or produce less - whatever the circumstances may be - that's fine. But when you arbitrarily turn around and say there'll be no pay rise for two years for public sectors but the bankers still get their bonuses, your pensions are going to be under attack but they can still put their money on the Cayman Islands and Bermuda and don't pay tax - I think that's an unfair society, and what we stand for is fairness. ANDREW MARR: Bob Crow … BOB CROW: And if that's political, that's what we stand for. ANDREW MARR: Alright, made it very, very clear. Bob Crow, thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning. BOB CROW: Thank you. INTERVIEW ENDS
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