Archbishop on Pope's 'gift of faith'

On Sunday 05 September Andrew Marr interviewed Archbishop Vincent Nichols.

Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

ANDREW MARR:

When Pope John Paul II came to Britain at the height of the Falklands War, his pastoral visit wasn't only historic, but it was welcomed even by non-Catholics for the message of reconciliation at a time of conflict. In eleven days time, his successor, Benedict XVI will arrive on these shores for the first ever state visit to Britain by a pope. This time the conflict's more to do with the Catholic Church itself - besieged by its critics, accused of cover-ups over child abuse - though perhaps the Pope is more concerned about the atmosphere in Britain, recently described as "a selfish wasteland with an anti-Catholic bias". Well those were the words of an aide to the Leader of the Catholic Church in England and Wales: the Archbishop of Westminster, Vincent Nichols. Archbishop, thank you very much indeed for joining us.

ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS:

Good morning.

ANDREW MARR:

Do you share that sort of vision that Britain is a particularly Godless and indeed sort of death culture society, extremely secular by modern standards?

ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS:

Well it's not how I would describe our society at all actually. I think our society is characterised as much by generosity and by genuine concern one for another, and I think religious faith is taken quite seriously by probably a majority of people in this country.

ANDREW MARR:

Yes. It's of course far from being a Catholic country.

ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS:

Oh no, no, no.

ANDREW MARR:

To what extent do you think the Pope feels that he's stepping on as it were alien territory; that he's out there with a country far from being converted to the Catholic cause?

ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS:

Well you know I think if you look at the history of this Pope's endeavours, they have always been to engage intelligently, at times academically with alternative views and alternative philosophies. So his great effort as a philosopher has been to engage with the philosophy of secularism. So I don't think he's coming to something he doesn't know and he doesn't understand. In fact I think he rather looks forward to an engagement with a society - the leadership of which has invited him here, so that precisely he can put forward the cause of faith. If there's a simple way of explaining I think the overall mission of Pope Benedict, it's to help us, to remind us that faith in God is not so much a problem to be solved as a gift to be discovered afresh. And I think that is quite relevant to today's society.

ANDREW MARR:

And is that going to be at the core of his message for this particular visit?

ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS:

I would think so. That together with some of the unfolding of that gift of faith into how we live together as a society.

ANDREW MARR:

And how do you approach the Anglican Church, which candidly your church regards as heretical?

ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS:

Well I think that's a word from the history books actually rather than from a modern lexicon. We would describe ourselves as brothers and sisters in Christ. And over the last twenty years, in a way since that great push that John Paul II gave to the relationships between our churches, we have built a pretty strong and pretty steady partnership. And I think present difficulties - and there are some -

ANDREW MARR:

Yes.

ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS:

… are not going to derail that partnership. We are committed to each other in the sense that a strong Church of England helps the cause of the Christian gospel in this country. That's our interest.

ANDREW MARR:

Do you have a similar sort of interest or alignment, particularly in this country, with Muslims in the sense that there is a sense, there's a view that there is a secular society and a secular agenda out there - not least among broadcasters and you know the metropolitan establishment if you like, putting it gently - and that Muslims, Catholics and other faith groups have a sort of tacit alliance against that?

ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS:

Well you know on the Friday morning of the Pope's visit, he will sit down with about a hundred leaders from different sectors of our society - including business, enterprise, sport, the health service, education - and they will all be people of faith in God, but of the different faiths, and he will talk with them about the role of faith in God in sustaining and enriching public leadership. So I think there are common causes between all those who believe in God, but I think there are particular things, particular kinds of conversation we have with different faiths. So, for example, the Pope's invitation to Islam has been to explore more openly the relationship between reason and faith. So recently in Oxford, for example, there was quite an important conference about radical revision, radical modernising of Islam, and these are particular issues that we would take up with the Islamic faith.

ANDREW MARR:

The danger I suppose for your church is that a lot of these deeper messages will simply be swept aside by the whole global child abuse controversy. Is it the case, as far as you understand it, that Pope Benedict will meet some of the victims of abuse while he's in this country?

ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS:

Well you know the pattern of his last five or six visits has been that he has met victims of abuse, but …

ANDREW MARR:

So we could expect that?

ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS:

Well but the rules are very clear that is done without any pre-announcement. It is done in private and it is done confidentially, which is quite right and proper. So I think we have to wait and see. But I don't think I would quite put the problem and the challenge and the real tragedy of child abuse, especially for the victims, in the category of something that will as it were overshadow everything else about this visit. This is an issue we have to take seriously and we try …

ANDREW MARR:

Sure …

ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS:

… but it is not the whole story.

ANDREW MARR:

Of course. A lot of people are quite angry about the inclusion of Cardinal Brady, the Primate of Ireland, in this visit because he was actually present when some victims were persuaded to keep their mouths shut after being abused by a particular priest and they see this, therefore, as a lack of contrition.

ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS:

Well this is a visit to the United Kingdom and that's the focus of the visit. Now wherever the Pope goes, cardinals come from different parts of the world to express their support for the Pope - for no other reason - so I think Cardinal Egan is coming from New York as well. So the fact that others will gather round, I don't think should distract from the focus of this visit - that this is to the United Kingdom.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) And yet the Pope had invited him to be with him and therefore …

ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS:

No I don't think … It is cardinals make their own initiatives. The Pope's own entourage is very limited. It's about eleven people from the Vatican. Others come because they want to come.

ANDREW MARR:

And this is a state visit …

ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS:

It is.

ANDREW MARR:

… not a pastoral visit. What's the difference?

ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS:

Well the difference is who issues the invitation.

ANDREW MARR:

I see.

ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS:

And in a way, as you said in your introduction, when John Paul II came, it was to the Catholic community and other people were interested and they watched and they were curious or maybe enthusiastic.

ANDREW MARR:

This is a visit to Britain?

ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS:

This is a visit to the United Kingdom.

ANDREW MARR:

Yes.

ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS:

So that's why he goes first of all to Scotland. And the first person he wanted to meet and he should meet is Her Majesty the Queen. That's where it starts.

ANDREW MARR:

Now of course this is an expensive visit and there's been some controversy about the fact that British taxpayers, feeling pretty strapped and under pressure at the moment, are going to be forking out quite a lot of money for this.

ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS:

Yeah, well so is the Catholic community too. But we're glad to, we're glad to. And a state visit …

ANDREW MARR:

Do you think it's fair that sort of as it were non-Catholic secular people and all the rest of it should be paying for this visit?

ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS:

It is a state visit. And you know the day that this country closes its doors and says we can't afford state visits is a very sad day because it would be a real gesture of isolationism. And I think we should remember that the Pope comes as the spiritual leader of one in five of all people on this planet. And so this is not a minor figure as it were, but this is a leader of probably the oldest international institution which serves humanity in a tremendous way right around the globe. And of course an important aspect of it is the relationships that will be developed between the United Kingdom government and the worldwide Catholic Church. That's an important part of the agenda.

ANDREW MARR:

There's been lots of talks of demonstrations and so on. Are you concerned that this is going to be a security problem?

ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS:

No, no, because we have worked very closely with the government, mainly through Lord Patten and the Foreign Office, and they have coordinated all the security arrangements, and I am quite sure that these have been done and been done well. And of course there will be people wanting to express alternative views - that's one of the joys of living in our society, we can do that - but I'm sure it will be done in a proper manner. After all, this country has a great tradition of hospitality towards its guests, and this is a very important guest and we look forward with great confidence to his coming.

ANDREW MARR:

Archbishop, thank you very much indeed for joining me this morning.

ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS:

(over) Thank you.

INTERVIEW ENDS

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