On 08 August James Landale interviewed Unite Joint General Secretary Derek Simpson. Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.
JAMES LANDALE:
Now one man who's certainly not convinced that the coalition government offers a new type of politics is the union leader Derek Simpson. He's accused ministers of declaring war on working people with their spending cuts and possible changes to public sector pensions. He says it reminds him of the 1980s. So will the unions respond with 80s style industrial action? Derek Simpson is with me now. Good morning, Derek Simpson. DEREK SIMPSON: Good morning, James. JAMES LANDALE: As we've just been discussing, the government this autumn is going to be introducing some pretty extraordinarily large spending cuts - many of which will affect some of your members. There's already been lots of cliched talk of an 'autumn of discontent'. Is there going to be trouble? DEREK SIMPSON: Well I actually think that the government, the Conservatives particularly, would love me to say that there's going to be a winter of discontent because what that would do is move the whole emphasis to industrial militancy and away from the cuts. I see that people will wake up to what this government is really about and our job is to enhance that process, speed that process. JAMES LANDALE: But you say the government has declared war on working people, but yet you're being quite sotto voce about this. You're being quite sort of relaxed. You're not for example, as Bob Crow is saying, calling for you new sort of universal action to protest. DEREK SIMPSON: Well I'm not going to criticise any other trade union leader for what they say, but I actually think that this is more about the whole people and not just our union members, which of course we're an important part of that. So I actually think that getting through the spin, through the sort of speak that's used to cover up what is really happening. I mean here we've got cuts that are going to affect women much more than men, poorer people much more than richer people. We've forgot entirely that the deficits are largely down to the effect on the economy that the bankers caused and the money that was put into the banks, and yet we see bonus culture back, we see massive bonuses being made, profits being made. It's an imbalance. JAMES LANDALE: But what exactly, what exactly is your union going to do about this? How are you going to make your argument? DEREK SIMPSON: Well I think the first thing is we're going to try and educate our members and people generally to what's really happening because … JAMES LANDALE: (over) We know what's happening: there are cuts. It's gonna happen. DEREK SIMPSON: No, no, I don't think people do. In fact actually I think you may be partly right. I predicted that within a year you'd find great difficulty in finding amongst our members and ordinary people, people who admitted that they'd voted Conservative. It's exactly the same that happened in Thatcher's period. And I know David Willetts is sat out in the green room and slightly nervous that he's going to be tagged with 'Thatcher the snatcher' on milk. It's astonishing how history is repeating itself. And you can have all the experts on a programme like this, giving you the facts and the figures, but the truth of the matter is that I'll predict again within a year you'll find difficulty in finding anybody admitting that they voted Conservative. The Lib Dems are already in somewhat of a disarray as a result of here we've voted for a government that we didn't really want and policies that we didn't really vote for. JAMES LANDALE: But the TUC next month, when other unions are calling for a day of action on October 20th when all these spending cuts are announced, what is Unite going to say - "No, no, we don't want to do that because we'll be accused of being cliched and be accused of militancy"? DEREK SIMPSON: Well a day of action is a focal point, it's not exactly a winter of discontent, and it's part of a process of drawing attention to some of the real issues as described from the point of view not from the government spin but from the point of view of the impact that it will have on ordinary people. JAMES LANDALE: But let's be clear. You do not want Greek-style demonstrations and protests, people coming out on the streets to express their concern about public spending cuts. You don't want that to happen? DEREK SIMPSON: Well I don't think that that's the nature of the British public, to be honest. I mean we don't have the volatile nature of the French or the Greeks and so on. But I think we do have to have a proper analysis of what's happening to us and a proper understanding, and I'd like to see a position where people are perfectly clear that when - as is predicted now - we have the giveaways just prior to the next election, we don't fall for the five card trick again. JAMES LANDALE: So let's be clear. Do you actually believe there should be no public spending cuts at all? DEREK SIMPSON: No, I think there is a need for tackling the public spending deficit, but I think I rather agree with the point that Sadiq Khan made earlier - that this is a question of how do you do that over what period of time? And if you're concerned about ordinary people, you do that over a planned and proper period. If you're not concerned about ordinary people - this 'we're all in it together' routine when clearly rich people are not in it at all, including most of the cabinet are not 'in it' at all - then you do it as some sort of emergency measure. JAMES LANDALE: Let me ask you about one specific thing. If public sector workers accepted less pay and smaller pensions, more of them would keep their jobs over the next twelve months. Do you not sort of think that is a viable option, that is better than some public sector workers losing their jobs while others keep their benefits and pay at the same level? DEREK SIMPSON: Well one's assuming that that's not something that happens in ordinary life. There are many thousands of people in the private sector doing similar things to try and keep jobs. But it's interesting the contradiction in terms again. Companies want to increase profit, want to be successful, want to grow and make more money, and the answer to that is to get the people who work for them to take less. It's an amazing contradiction again. It rather fits into the same pattern - that we have a divided society and we aren't all in it together. JAMES LANDALE: This is clearly going to be a long process of the government introducing these cuts. How willing are you to cooperate with the government on this? I mean would you sit down and break bread with David Cameron at Downing Street over this? DEREK SIMPSON: Well I don't know that that would be anything that I'd be invited to, to be perfectly frank, because I've made my position perfectly clear. I don't think there's any point in talking to the Conservative government because I don't think they'll take any notice whatsoever. JAMES LANDALE: But why not? Surely you have to be constructive too? DEREK SIMPSON: Well the TUC will do that. I mean we'll operate through the TUC. I mean me personally is another matter. JAMES LANDALE: So, just to be clear, you would not be prepared to sit down with David Cameron anywhere? DEREK SIMPSON: (over) I didn't say I wouldn't be prepared. I said I doubt I'd be invited. JAMES LANDALE: Okay. What would happen if he would invite you though? You would go? DEREK SIMPSON: I'll decide at the time. It depends what the subject is. JAMES LANDALE: Okay, let's talk briefly about the Labour leadership issue. This contest has been seemingly going on forever. It will resolve itself at the end of the summer. DEREK SIMPSON: Oh yes, yeah. JAMES LANDALE: Your union leadership have backed Ed Miliband to be the next Labour Leader. DEREK SIMPSON: Yes. JAMES LANDALE: How many of your two million odd members do you think will actually follow your lead? DEREK SIMPSON: Well it's a democracy. People will make their mind up. That's the beauty. I mean people don't understand the level of democracy that we have. Unions aren't organisations that dictate terms. People will vote. And obviously the two Milibands are probably the most easily recognised amongst the candidates. JAMES LANDALE: But what's wrong with the other brother, David Miliband? DEREK SIMPSON: Well nothing's wrong with him. I saw his piece when he had a go at David Cameron over the comments about Pakistan - again Sadiq Khan made the point - and I thought David were brilliant in the way that he actually answered that point. But over a year ago, I identified Ed Miliband as someone who I thought would be a future leader of the Labour party. There's an opportunity now and he's got my support. JAMES LANDALE: (over) Very quickly, what's Ed Miliband going to give you in return for your support? DEREK SIMPSON: Nothing. There's no … there never has been on either the finance we give or the work that we do. It will give us a leader - as I assume other candidates will - that will return a Labour government and stop this Tory nonsense. JAMES LANDALE: Derek Simpson, thank you very much indeed for coming in here this morning. INTERVIEW ENDS
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