On Sunday 25 July Andrew Marr interviewed the Culture Secretary Jeremy Hunt MP. Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used. ANDREW MARR: Now then, "we are spending beyond our means and the arts sector, like all sectors, has to recognise that painful times lie ahead". That's not a Treasury bean counter talking. It's a quote from the man whose job it is to nurture the arts: the Media and Culture Secretary Jeremy Hunt. He also says huge numbers of things have to change here at the BBC. Now they used to call his department the Ministry of Fun. Doesn't sound like it's going to be a complete hoot - at least for a couple of years to come. Secretary of State, thank you for coming in … JEREMY HUNT: Good morning Andrew. ANDREW MARR: … and welcome. Good morning. Let's talk first of all about the general arts budget - the subsidies that go to theatres and arts companies all round England particularly in your case. There's a lot of theatres. There's a lot of good and relatively popular things that are going to have to close, aren't there? JEREMY HUNT: Well I hope not. Listening to Sir Tom just then actually reminded me how fantastic the British music industry is, and it's interesting that we have new contemporary acts like Coldplay and Leona Lewis who are huge hits in the United States. And I think what is very important is that we remember that there is a strong link between the funded arts sector, subsidised theatre, and the commercially successful music industry and film industry. And the creative industries overall are employing two million people in this country. ANDREW MARR: So how are you going to get your … I mean get your way through? You've already said you want to take out up to half of your own civil servants, but you also want 25% cuts in the Arts Council budgets. And how are you going to achieve that without sort of a bloodbath in the arts world? JEREMY HUNT: Well we haven't decided yet and we're in discussions with the Treasury, as all my cabinet colleagues are, about the precise level of arts funding. But what I have said is that if we're going to take a hit, I want the hit to be on the bureaucracy and the back office and the stuff the public doesn't see first. And I think that's right, and I think that … ANDREW MARR: Is there enough fat there to do that? JEREMY HUNT: Well it's going to be very, very difficult, and I don't want to pretend that we're not going to go through a very challenging time. And I have the worst inheritance of any culture secretary in the history of my department because the last government promised the Arts money that simply didn't exist; and now, along with my cabinet colleagues, we're in a situation where we're having to make very, very painful cuts. But I'm absolutely determined that in that process, we will protect our cultural core - the fantastic theatre world, the amazing music industry. When it comes to TV, we have the biggest independent TV production sector in the world. ANDREW MARR: A lot of you know the directors and people that run museums and so on have called for you pretty more or less publicly to go in and fight for them with the Treasury and to point out that the VAT receipts from ticket sales dwarf the actual Arts Council budget; that actually as a country we make a lot of money out of the arts and that we shouldn't, therefore, just slash them back. Are you going to go in and bat for them? Are you going to be tough on their behalf? JEREMY HUNT: I'm absolutely making that argument. But George Osborne, David Cameron, Nick Clegg, they all understand how important the arts are - not just to our economy, but to society as a whole - and we are all of us collectively determined to make sure that we get through this period without doing any damage, any long-term damage to the arts, and recognising what an incredible asset … I mean I think the arts are one of our huge crown jewels … ANDREW MARR: Good. JEREMY HUNT: … and we want to make sure that they survive and they thrive through one of the most challenging periods in their history. ANDREW MARR: One of the suggestions has been that this country needs a kind of great growth of philanthropy, a bit like the Americans have had, and yet there's nothing like the incentives for people to give to the arts that there are in the States, nor the tradition. JEREMY HUNT: Well let me be clear. What we're not saying is that we want the state to pull back. I mean you know you were talking to Martin Freeman earlier, and I was just thinking how brilliant he was in The Office when you showed that clip. Well you know he's an example of someone who has benefited from the fact that we have a subsidised arts sector which helps young actors get on their way. So we're not talking about that, but we are saying if we're going to go through this difficult period what can we do to help the arts through this? And that's why I've already announced that I'm returning the National Lottery to its original four pillars. The lottery was plundered by the last government and what we're trying to do is to make sure that it … Arts and culture was one of the original strands of lottery funding and I think that will help them. And I also want to see can we boost private giving, philanthropy. Philanthropists give more in other countries than they do here. ANDREW MARR: Do you think more tax breaks will make it easier for people to give, do you think? JEREMY HUNT: Well this isn't, this isn't a period when we're going to be able to make an argument for big tax breaks because George Osborne is wrestling with this appalling deficit that we've … ANDREW MARR: (over) He needs the money. JEREMY HUNT: … inherited. But there are things that I think we can do to make it easier, and one of them is just to recognise the people who are generous in their support of the arts. One of the first things I did was I wrote to the two hundred biggest donors to the arts just to say thank you because what you're doing is incredibly important. ANDREW MARR: Let me turn to broadcasting. Are we going to see a Fox style broadcaster in this country? Are you going to remove some of the impartiality and fairness parts of broadcasting legislation to allow more "parti pris" broadcasting? JEREMY HUNT: Absolutely not. We have said - and I announced in opposition - that we are committed to protecting the impartiality requirements amongst the major broadcasters. ANDREW MARR: Rupert Murdoch comes to you and says, "I want Fox Britain. I want a Fox Television in Britain", the answer is no? JEREMY HUNT: The answer's no, and that's one of a number of things that we would disagree with what Rupert Murdoch would want. And why is that? It's because people value impartiality in news and radio. If you look at the surveys, they say that's one of the things they value the most. And particularly at the BBC, that is one of the cornerstones that makes the BBC what it is. ANDREW MARR: I'm going to come onto the BBC in a moment. Just before I do, Channel Five taken over by Richard Desmond, I think safe to say a controversial and colourful figure. Are you relaxed about that? JEREMY HUNT: Well what people need to remember about that is that the regulations over what broadcasters can do are much stricter than over people who run newspapers and magazines. And it was a Conservative government that founded Channel Five in 1997. Indeed Conservative governments have actually been responsible for most of the big changes in broadcasting. We founded ITV and Four and did the Sky and satellite and cable revolution as well. But what I think is encouraging is that one of the first things that Richard Desmond said was that he was committed to Five's future as a public service broadcaster. And if you look at popular programmes on Five like CSI, like Grey's Anatomy, I think fans of those series will be pleased that it's got an owner who is committed to Five's future. ANDREW MARR: Has Mark Thompson, the Director General of the BBC, done enough to convince you that he's seriously cutting back on executive pay and bureaucracy? JEREMY HUNT: Well I think they've made some steps in the right direction, but we'll be … ANDREW MARR: But not enough? JEREMY HUNT: We'll be having discussions over the future of the licence fee, the next licence fee settlement next year, in which I'll be talking to Mark and the BBC management in a lot of detail. And I do want the BBC to demonstrate that when it comes to their management pay, they're on the same planet as everyone else because … because of the economic inheritance that we're facing, government ministers are having to be careful with every single penny of taxpayers' money and the BBC does need to show that it's careful with every penny of licence fee payers' money as well. ANDREW MARR: And you've suggested the licence fee itself could either by frozen or reduced in the next round? JEREMY HUNT: Well we haven't had any discussions at all about the level of the licence fee. That's something that we'll be doing next year. But … ANDREW MARR: (over) Do you … Sorry, just to jump in on that. Do you think that the licence fee is sustainable longer term? As people are sort of using iPads and all sorts of screens to watch television, the notion of what a television is is beginning to come under threat, and I wonder whether you think by the time of the next charter the licence fee will be a gonner anyway? JEREMY HUNT: Well what we've said very clearly is that we accept the principle of the licence fee, which is you know the idea if you like of a household tax to fund public service broadcasting that is ring-fenced, and we think that one of the reasons we have some of the best TV and broadcasting in the world in this country is because we have these different streams of income including the licence fee, including subscription income and including advertising. Now the way we collect it may have to be rethought because technology is changing, a lot of people are watching TV on their PCs. We're not going to introduce a PC licence fee and that is something that I do need to have discussions with the BBC to see what their ideas are. ANDREW MARR: Do you think that - if you put the bureaucracy and pay of executives to one side - do you think the BBC is doing too much, that it's too big? JEREMY HUNT: I don't think it's about the overall size. It's about what it focuses on. I'd like the BBC - and I've always been very clear about this - to concentrate on producing great TV programmes at the quality end of the spectrum. One of the things I think we get from having a BBC is that there is competition in British broadcasting at the quality end and not just at the mass end of the market … ANDREW MARR: Sure. JEREMY HUNT: … and I think that's terribly important. And delivering world class news, which I think is a very, very important thing. And, incidentally, part of that must be to have full editorial independence. I mean we are I think in this country a beacon for democracy, and part of that is that the national broadcaster has full editorial independence from the government. ANDREW MARR: Do you think the BBC overall though should be doing less? JEREMY HUNT: I think it needs to define much more clearly the commercial areas of activity that it is involved in. We've always believed that you want to have a strong BBC, but also strong competition to the BBC. And when you have three and a half billion pounds of licence fee money in the broadcasting market, then obviously one of the concerns of other broadcasters is just how the BBC might choose to spend its money. ANDREW MARR: Sure, sure. JEREMY HUNT: And so getting that balance right, I think is important. ANDREW MARR: And what about the website, the BBC website, because some of the BBC's critics have said it's very … you can't put a pay wall around our news because there's the BBC giving away news for free and it shouldn't be doing this? JEREMY HUNT: Well I think the web is a very good area where the BBC needs to have clearer red lines about what it will and won't do. I mean we all recognise that programmes need to have websites, people want to catch up and see a programme at a different time, follow up on information that they saw in a programme. But do we want Top Gear to have a strategy to say we're going to be the biggest motoring website in the country? No, we don't because that will put off anyone who's got an idea for a website to do with cars from bothering to invest in it. So I don't think that is what Top Gear want to do, incidentally, but I think it is important that people understand the red lines about what the BBC is going to do and what it isn't, so that we can have that very important competition and choice in the market, which I think benefits consumers. ANDREW MARR: And when it comes to so-called talent pay, do you want to see everybody's pay out there on a website or stuff? Or the BBC's trying to do it by bands at the moment. Is that going to satisfy you? JEREMY HUNT: Well I think the difficulty here is that the public is genuinely divided. Some people say why should we pay huge salaries for stars on the BBC when we can see them on ITV? Other people say look one of the reasons I pay my licence fee is because I want to see people like Brucie doing Strictly and you know enjoy (as we all will be) Ann Widdecombe performing when the next series starts. But you know there is a genuine division there, and I think the best way to resolve that is for the BBC to be open about the packages that it pays to celebrities, so that people can make their own minds up. ANDREW MARR: So you'd like as much transparency as possible, everything out there? JEREMY HUNT: I think so. We have learnt in government that actually transparency is the best way to solve a lot of these issues because you're saying to the public look you're grown up, you make up your own minds. We'll give you all the information you need. We're going through a transparency revolution in the government at the moment and that is something that we are welcoming with open arms, and I think the BBC could learn from that. ANDREW MARR: And what about ITV because a lot of people would say that in this new very, very multi-sided broadcasting world making ITV do all of those public broadcasting things about children's television and religion and all the rest of it, and indeed news, is a bit unfair; that ITV should be freed to be a bit more populist frankly? JEREMY HUNT: Well I believe that ITV has a very, very important role in the broadcasting environment whether it comes to ITN competing with BBC news, whether it's the Jane Austen series competing with Cranford on the BBC, and I've always thought that the role of ITV is to compete at the popular end with the BBC's programmes. So I think it has a really, really important role. But the regulations that surround ITV were set up in the pre-Internet era, and yes we do want to look at whether those are all appropriate. We want ITV to be a public service broadcaster, but we want it to be able to compete. ANDREW MARR: Did you enjoy Brokeback Mountain? JEREMY HUNT: (laughs) I thought you might ask that. I thought it was a wonderful film actually and I … ANDREW MARR: I thought it was rather a boring film, I have to say. But you liked it. Anyway, okay … JEREMY HUNT: I thought it was a good film. I know what you're going to talk about now. You're going to talk about David Davis's comments that were overheard. ANDREW MARR: (over) Yuh. And, and …? JEREMY HUNT: And, look, it's a very catchy phrase to talk about a "brokeback coalition". But there's a very important point about this coalition, which is that before the election people were crying out for a new type of politics. They said why can't politicians sit round a table and talk to each other? Well if you'd been a fly on the wall at our cabinet meeting on Friday in Chequers, you would have seen that - people from different parties rolling up their sleeves … ANDREW MARR: I would have been very interested, I must say. I'd have been a very fascinated fly. But we've run out of time. Thank you very much indeed, Jeremy, for that. INTERVIEW ENDS
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