On Sunday 30 May Andrew Marr interviewed Joint General Secretary of Unite, Derek Simpson. Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.  Derek Simpson, Joint General Secretary of Unite |
ANDREW MARR: Well as we just heard, of course, the BA strike is going ahead after last weekend's interrupted talks and a row over the union leader Derek Simpson twittering during them. You may have seen a furious Willie Walsh of British Airways on the show last week. Weeks of disruption ahead for travellers unless some last minute deal can be sorted. Well bringing us right up to right, Mr Simpson joins us now from Manchester. Good morning, Mr Simpson. DEREK SIMPSON: Good morning, Andrew. ANDREW MARR: Willie Walsh was clearly … I mean he was shaking with anger about the twittering last weekend. Were you trying to sort of spook him or disrupt things, or was it just a bad mistake on your part? DEREK SIMPSON: No, I think he was trying to spook everyone else. It's amazing that he gets so excited about a trivial matter, which is a complete diversion from the real issue. And the real issue really is that his action of withdrawing travel allowances, and doing so permanently, is really putting an obstacle in the way albeit of a difficult settlement, nevertheless a settlement. ANDREW MARR: Well let's … DEREK SIMPSON: And that would be at no cost to British Airways. So the casual brushing aside of that issue and allowing this dispute to continue really is what ought to make everyone else shake with anger. ANDREW MARR: Well let's come back to that in a second. But just on the twittering, do you not accept that in the middle of a negotiation to be giving a running commentary on it to the outside looks like bad faith? DEREK SIMPSON: Well you must make your mind up whether you consider it's bad faith. We've been accused of not keeping people informed, not letting the information go, misleading people. I'd prefer … ANDREW MARR: So you're not sorry about it? DEREK SIMPSON: I'd prefer these negotiations to be in front of a camera. Let the world see what the argument is. Then Willie wouldn't be able to come out shaking with anger about diversions. If people could actually see what he's doing, they'd know who to blame as opposed to him running around on every form of the media, including your good show last week, doing anything but facing up to the real truth that the only thing that stands between getting the planes fully back in the air, people back to work and customer confidence back is his stance, which at no cost to BA could settle this dispute. ANDREW MARR: So no regrets about the twittering, and you could do it again at a further negotiation? DEREK SIMPSON: No, no. I'm sensible enough to realise that if he's prepared to use any excuse - including that one - to digress away from the reality, then obviously I'm not going to give him that excuse anymore. But the truth of the matter is, as I've said, it is a digression and let's get down to the real issue. And, as I say, I'd be perfectly happy to do the negotiations in the full glare of public light - on a television, anywhere at all - because there's only one person here that's being unreasonable and that's Willie Walsh. ANDREW MARR: Well let's turn to the meat of the issue. You say that if cabin crew can get their travel perks back, the thing could be cleared up like that. Does that mean that you would accept that the new people coming on board will have different conditions from those there at the moment? DEREK SIMPSON: That's already built into the document that's on the table. As I've said, it's a difficult document. It's not easy - let me not pretend - and it's all about confidence. It's all about confidence of management in the workforce, the workforce in management. Clearly there's been a breakdown. We've been doing all we can to build that back. It's very difficult to build that back with such an irrational position on the travel allowances. But, yes, if we could get the confidence back, if we could get the travel allowances back as they should be, I believe that a deal is doable. I think actually Willie Walsh thinks a deal is doable, but he seems to be intent on regime change - wanting to punish the workforce. ANDREW MARR: Can you deliver the so-called union within the union - BASSA, the people directly involved - and can you deliver them for a considerable amount of time that will give British Airways some sort of stability? DEREK SIMPSON: I think the answer to that question is yes, and I think we've already told Willie Walsh that. But he doesn't want that. He wants regime change, he wants to punish people, and it's irrational. ANDREW MARR: So what do you mean by regime change? DEREK SIMPSON: Well I think he actually wants to get shut of the BASSA committee. I think he's got no confidence that that going forward will give him a clear run at whatever he wants to do and that there'll be recurring difficulties. We've tried to assure him that as far as Unite's concerned, that's not how we do business. We will control that situation. And if he's reasonable, I've no doubt that our people equally will be reasonable. But it is this question of confidence, and the travel allowance and his attitude towards it is a real impediment. ANDREW MARR: You've been very vocal in accusing Willie Walsh of bullying. Will you be equally so in telling BASSA members who have been intimidating people who want to go back to work not to bully them? DEREK SIMPSON: Well absolutely. Look, we don't defend bad behaviour. If indeed that is the situation … and that's why we have insisted on third party observance, so that it's not either side who's spinning in terms of anything that happens on discipline. ANDREW MARR: Is it … DEREK SIMPSON: If people have behaved badly, well they'll have to stand by their consequences. However, if this is just a question of putting pressure on strikers to try and create fear not only in the ones that are suspended but others that may be, then that's another matter again, isn't it? ANDREW MARR: And is it now too late to stop these strikes going ahead? DEREK SIMPSON: Well I have to say this is typical. Look we're in Manchester, as you know. It's our policy conference this week. When after twelve hours of talks, six of them on Friday, we was at the point of, "Well have we finished talks?", Willie Walsh said, "No, we've not finished. Let's meet again. But we know that you're in Manchester, so let's meet the week after next." In other words, quite blandly - happy to have the strike go ahead next week. We could have resolved, we could continue to resolve and still can. And we've said, and by the way I twittered 'we'll meet any time anywhere to resolve this dispute.' That's a good twitter, isn't it? ANDREW MARR: (laughs) Alright. Derek Simpson, thank you very much indeed. DEREK SIMPSON: Okay, you're welcome. INTERVIEW ENDS
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