On Sunday 23 May Andrew Marr interviewed Andy Burnham MP. Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.  Andy Burnham, MP |
ANDREW MARR: Well to the election. The Labour leadership election, I hasten to add. It's going to be a pretty long, slow race because we won't know the winner for another four months, so plenty of time for the candidates to get around, develop their manifestos and all of that. But at the moment they're still arguing about what went wrong in the campaign. Yesterday two of them denounced what was I suppose the most significant decision of the Blair years: going to war in Iraq. Party policies on immigration and welfare have also been criticised. And I'm joined now by one of the other candidates, Andy Burnham. Good morning. ANDY BURNHAM: Good morning, Andrew. ANDREW MARR: You launched your campaign in the newspapers. You are a white, 40 something man. ANDY BURNHAM: That's true. I can't deny that. ANDREW MARR: So what makes you different from the Milibands and Ed Balls and the others who've joined the race so far? ANDY BURNHAM: Well we are all good friends and they're all great talents, but my background is different. And, as people can probably hear, I come from a different part of the country and I hope that my ordinary upbringing means that people might be able to relate to me. Also though that I have got an ability to connect with the people that Labour needs to win back; and obviously coming out of the election, that's the party's top priority. ANDREW MARR: Everybody seems to have gone back over the campaign and talked about the failure of the Labour Party to listen to its core voters and so on. Do you agree with that? And if you do, what in concrete policy terms is the solution? ANDY BURNHAM: Well I think Labour did great things during its thirteen years in office and I'm not standing to disown that record or to say that it was all wrong. It wasn't. We did things that improved my constituency greatly. But there was a perception that we weren't listening to people - particularly people who'd found life hard in recent months, as the recession had bit. That sense that people doing the right thing, trying to get on in life, who'd perhaps always looked to Labour to give them a helping hand, I think they felt that Labour when they looked round wasn't on their side. And that was the message that I heard a lot around the country during the election. It wasn't that we'd fundamentally lost their trust. I think there was just a sense that Labour wasn't listening to them. ANDREW MARR: Do you think on immigration you had the wrong policy? ANDY BURNHAM: I think our problem on immigration - and it was for me anyway clearly the biggest issue at the election - was the sense that we weren't talking about it, so that some people felt we were either in denial or just didn't want to talk about it. Because I know that there are some parts of the country that have changed very rapidly. It's not whole communities, but often small parts of communities have changed rapidly, and that has changed people's lives in those communities. So you know Labour has to be in there, Andrew, talking to those people - otherwise we leave a vacuum and those with more sinister intentions come in and obviously whip up fear and hatred. ANDREW MARR: Well you see I don't quite understand this business about we must talk about it more because the question is would the policy be different, should the policy have been different? Was there a policy problem or is it simply that you didn't use the right words? ANDY BURNHAM: I mean partly a problem of perception. Labour had taken steps to toughen the immigration system. And as I pointed out many times on relation to European migration, there was a time in this country where British people travelled Europe to get jobs. My own dad worked in Germany and Ireland in the 1990s. So we have benefited from free movement. ANDREW MARR: (over) So the policy was alright pretty much? ANDY BURNHAM: There was a perception problem, I think. But it's not just the question of immigration. It's access to housing; it's the effect on wages and jobs. So it's not that people didn't welcome new arrivals. It's just that it could make life tougher in certain parts of the country, and it was not talking enough and showing that we understood that that I think became a problem for us at the election. ANDREW MARR: Was Gordon Brown a problem on the doorstep? ANDY BURNHAM: Well people mentioned that you know they weren't inspired by Gordon. Actually I felt he performed well in the leadership debates and actually I've got huge personal affection and admiration for Gordon. I think in his time in office as Prime Minister, the challenges he faced and stood up to were unbelievable. ANDREW MARR: And you don't agree with the critics of the Iraq War either? You stick by that decision? ANDY BURNHAM: Well I was in parliament at the time and I voted for the war. I can say … I mean I've been over and over it in my mind many times since because obviously it was a huge decision and people still have very, very strong views about it. I, with hindsight, could look back and say well maybe that could have been done differently and that wasn't quite right, but I don't back away from the original decision. I think it gave twenty or so million people in Iraq hope of a better life and you just cannot walk away from that truth, and that's so important to say. ANDREW MARR: You sound to me like the continuity candidate. ANDY BURNHAM: I'm quite proud to be. As I say, I think Labour did really good things, and at the beginning of New Labour we said things that connected with the public - that we would be tough on crime, that we would be pro-business and that we would really support those who want to get on in life - and Labour mustn't walk away from some of those really important messages that we made. I think at times we lost our way. In relation to wealth at times, it looked like we had no view on very excessive wealth, and I don't think the Labour Party could ever be in that position where we just had no view about wealth at the very highest levels. But, nevertheless, let's not walk away from those founding principles of New Labour. ANDREW MARR: So you would not if you were the Labour Party Leader take the Labour Party in opposition more to the Left? ANDY BURNHAM: I would … I'm very much a Labour person through and through, and I would very much want … ANDREW MARR: (over) Want to build a New Labour? ANDY BURNHAM: I would say very clearly to you, Andrew, that my vision of Britain is a country where we have a fairer spread of health, wealth and life chances. Coming from the background that I do, I still have a strong sense that life chances aren't fairly distributed around this country; that kids from ordinary backgrounds still find it very, very hard indeed to break into the powerful worlds of the media … ANDREW MARR: Yeah. ANDY BURNHAM: … finance, law, politics even. That has been my experience through my life. I've always expected the tap on the shoulder to say, "Oh well this job isn't for the likes of you." And because of my experience in my life, it makes me more and more determined to open up opportunities to kids from ordinary backgrounds all round the country. And while Labour made progress on that issue, you know there is much, much more to do. ANDREW MARR: And we've got four months of this now. You all know each other very well … ANDY BURNHAM: We do. ANDREW MARR: … you're all about the same age and so on. ANDY BURNHAM: We are. ANDREW MARR: Is it going to turn nasty? ANDY BURNHAM: Oh no - no, absolutely not. I mean we've worked together as colleagues and as friends. And while we are different people with different backgrounds and different perspectives, I think actually we helped sustain the government by being good friends in government and I'm fairly confident that that will carry on. Obviously leadership elections in the Labour Party can always be a bit rough and tumble at times and there'll doubtless be a little bit of that, but we'll be friends and we'll keep it positive. And as I say, I hugely admire all of them. ANDREW MARR: Alright. Andy Burnham, for now thank you very much indeed. ANDY BURNHAM: Thank you. INTERVIEW ENDS
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