Ed Miliband - 'We need to win back the voters we lost'

On Sunday 16 May Andrew Marr interviewed Ed Miliband, a candidate for the Labour party leadership.

Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

ANDREW MARR:

In his speech to the Fabian Society announcing he was going to stand for the Labour leadership, Ed Miliband was relaxed and informal, almost like David Cameron when he made his bid to lead his party. But the message was stark. Labour had failed to listen - failed to listen about immigration, fairness and the plight of struggling families. Now so far only he and his older brother David, the former Foreign Secretary, have actually declared their candidacies, though we suppose others will follow. Well Ed Miliband joins me now. Ed Miliband, you were in the room with Gordon Brown in those final few moments when I suppose at the last ditch the thought that there could be some kind of deal fell apart and you confronted the reality of defeat. It seems to have been an incredibly emotionally charged moment. Can you just talk us through what was going on?

ED MILIBAND:

Of course. I mean it was very emotional. I'd worked with Gordon for many years. Many of the people who were there had done so. It was emotional, but it also had its moments of uncertainty, I have to say. Nick Clegg was on the phone rather a lot saying he hadn't quite finally decided what he was going to do. So it was uncertain and emotional. But I think we owe Gordon a huge debt of gratitude. I think there are millions of people in this country and frankly around the world who have better lives as a result of his service in politics.

ANDREW MARR:

But a pretty sad way for you all to end what has been thirteen years?

ED MILIBAND:

Yes it is a sad way to end and you know opposition is not where I want Labour to be. I want Labour to be back in government because I think that is what will make the country fairer and better.

ANDREW MARR:

Did you feel as one of the negotiating team at any stage that the coalition deal with the Liberal Democrats, despite the difficulty of the numbers, was a real goer?

ED MILIBAND:

I think at moments, I did. I think for reasons that they will have to explain, I don't think they were ever really in retrospect going to come in with us.

ANDREW MARR:

Because they say that your side were a bit peremptory, perhaps a little bit rude, weren't giving very much.

ED MILIBAND:

Well I think it's certainly the case that the Tories were willing to do anything and say anything in order to get in with them. I think there were some difficult issues that they were raising with us though. They said we want to cut the deficit faster, we want public spending cuts this year, and that was difficult for us and we weren't just going to give that away. But in the end, I think that they had sort of made up their mind. Looking back on it, I feel they'd probably made up their mind.

ANDREW MARR:

And they and the Conservatives now feel, apparently, that they are the progressive coalition that you guys were talking about before this one was agreed.

ED MILIBAND:

Well let's see. I think that the Conservatives - and Charles Kennedy obviously thinks this too - are going to be using the Liberal Democrats to, I think the phrase, "detoxify their brand" and position themselves. But let's see what this government does in reality. I have to say that for a promise of new politics, I've been pretty disappointed to see what they're trying to do to the British constitution. They're trying to say that instead of the old …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) This 55% thing in the Commons?

ED MILIBAND:

(over) Exactly. Instead of the old situation where if you don't get 50% in the House of Commons then there has to be a General Election or parliament has to dissolve, they're trying to change the goalposts. That's pretty shameful old politics in my view and I think it's not surprising that Conservatives, as well as Labour and Liberal Democrats, are voicing concern about that.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) Is that going to be something you would expect defeat even in this complicated new House of Commons?

ED MILIBAND:

Well I certainly think it's something that we'll be arguing against, voting against in the House of Commons because I think people don't want people to be playing fast and loose with the constitution in this way.

ANDREW MARR:

Your Fabian speech yesterday touched on this, but tell us a bit about what you think Labour got wrong.

ED MILIBAND:

I think we … two things went wrong for us. I think first of all we lost our sense of mission and direction. I think if you lose that sense of direction, which I think we had in the earlier years of the government, then you tend to be blown about much more by events. And I got a sense on the doorstep that people felt we'd lost our way somewhat.

ANDREW MARR:

And was that because you'd been in power, because you'd been behind those great big walnut doors for too long?

ED MILIBAND:

Yes and I think it's much harder to renew … Take the example of the banking crisis. I think our response to it in terms of keeping the economy going was the right response. I think, however, in really coming to terms with the lessons of that for our economy - how did our economy need to change, how did the banking system need to change, could we deal with the excesses at the top - I felt we were pretty technocratic on that and conservative, if you like, and I don't think we really fully responded to the mood of public anger and outrage there was that we couldn't go back to business as usual. And I think that's a sign of what happens to you in government. You become more caretakers than idealists, if you like, and I think we have to recapture that sense of idealism. That's what I would want to do if I was Leader of the Labour Party.

ANDREW MARR:

You've become a bit posh. I mean on immigration as well, you weren't for some reason hearing what your own people were saying to you.

ED MILIBAND:

Yes and again it's what I say about sort of becoming kind of managers, if you like. Economically for the country as a whole, the immigration we saw from Eastern Europe has been good. It's been probably good for our economy. But it's, as I said yesterday, it's a class issue. It's had different impacts on different people. If you're someone who's on low wages and you find there are lots more people competing for your job, that makes life much tougher for you. And we didn't respond to that. We sort of said, look, globalisation is good for our country, and we didn't sufficiently recognise those different effects it was having on different people across the country.

ANDREW MARR:

In the next year or two or three years possibly, there's going to be a lot of trouble clearly in the public sector as these cuts come. There's going to be a lot of very, very angry people marching and demonstrating and so on in defence of their jobs and their living standards. Do you want the Labour Party to be on their side?

ED MILIBAND:

We'll judge the decisions the government makes. We said, and you know we're not going to pretend otherwise, that we said there would have to be difficult decisions, but …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) So you're not going to hypocritically jump across and be on the barricades?

ED MILIBAND:

(over) No. No, we will be consistent, but we will hold the government to account for the decisions it makes. And you know I was concerned that in the negotiations the Liberal Democrats were saying, in a rather cavalier way frankly, let's just have faster deficit reduction. And I said in those negotiations, "Well hang on a minute. We've got to look at the implications of this for people across our society. Not just the workers, frankly, but the people who rely on schools and hospitals and policing across this country." So we'll be holding them to account on the decisions they make on that.

ANDREW MARR:

What about the BA strike? Which side are you on there?

ED MILIBAND:

Well I think that the management and the workers need to get round the table and need to settle this strike. As I understand it, it's now become about a whole set of sort of second order issues like not to do with what the original dispute was about. I think the best thing is that the sides get together and try and resolve that.

ANDREW MARR:

Where do you want to take the Labour Party?

ED MILIBAND:

I want the Labour Party to do two things. I want it to regain that sense of mission and idealism, which I think is absolutely essential for the direction that we need to take the country in, so we can address the new issues we face like climate change and an ageing population.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) Is that code for going a bit to the Left?

ED MILIBAND:

No, I wouldn't describe it in that way because I think the second thing we've got to do is reconnect with the people we lost. And we lost different groups in the population. We lost people who've been traditionally Labour voters over issues like immigration. I think we also lost the voters that Tony Blair attracted to our party in 1997.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) This is the …

ED MILIBAND:

And I would want to … and I would want to win them back and I would make that a very important part of my leadership.

ANDREW MARR:

This is the problem, isn't it though - is that David Cameron has sort of sicked up his tanks and driven them straight onto the lawn of the so-called progressive alliance that you were guys were talking about. There he is sitting there, very very much where Tony Blair was sitting …

ED MILIBAND:

Sure.

ANDREW MARR:

… all that time ago.

ED MILIBAND:

Well …

ANDREW MARR:

And he's trying to push you to the Left.

ED MILIBAND:

Well as always with Mr Cameron, let's look behind the image. It's early days. It's great to do a press conference with Nick Clegg and be all lovey-dovey, but the question then is what do you actually do, where do you stand on the difficult decisions whether it's on tax or on spending or all those issues? What kind of society do you want to create? That's how we have to judge them.

ANDREW MARR:

Two candidates for this job. Why are you better than your brother?

ED MILIBAND:

I think it's for other people to judge all of the candidates. And I … I love David, he's my best friend in life, and it's been one of the hardest decisions I've made in my life as to whether to stand against him.

ANDREW MARR:

So why did you take it?

ED MILIBAND:

I tell you why I did. Because I think Britain needs a strong Labour Party and all the lessons of history and from other political parties, the way you get the strongest political party when you're in opposition is with the widest possible contest of ideas and people. And David will make an enormous contribution to that debate. I will try and make my own contribution as well.

ANDREW MARR:

But why do you think your contribution is better than his?

ED MILIBAND:

Well let me tell you what I think I would try and bring to the leadership of this party. I would try and bring my sense of idealism and values, my sense of empathy and my ability to reach out and understand people's lives, and my ability to unite the party and reach out to the country.

ANDREW MARR:

(over) You come across as just a little more human than he does. Is that what you're saying?

ED MILIBAND:

(over) No, I think that's all rubbish. Honestly, Andrew, that is all rubbish. And one thing I'm not going to do in this contest is mischaracterise my brother …

ANDREW MARR:

Of course.

ED MILIBAND:

… because I think he has an enormous contribution to make to our country and to our party.

ANDREW MARR:

And if you win this, what's the future for him? Could you two work together?

ED MILIBAND:

Absolutely.

ANDREW MARR:

Would he be your … could he be your Chancellor or whatever it might be?

ED MILIBAND:

I think measuring the curtains is probably a bit early.

ANDREW MARR:

Shadow Chancellor.

ED MILIBAND:

Absolutely, and we've both said publicly and privately to each other when we discussed this that we would work together and we would work together for the future of the party and the country as well.

ANDREW MARR:

And is it really true that your mother's going to support John Cruddas?

ED MILIBAND:

No, that was what I …

ANDREW MARR:

That was a joke>

ED MILIBAND:

That was what I said yesterday. I think actually in the Labour Party contest, you can have more than one vote if you're a member of some of the different societies, so she could end up voting for both of us.

ANDREW MARR:

And how soon do you think this needs to be settled?

ED MILIBAND:

I think it's better to get it right than get it quickly. It's a matter for the NEC. But we need a proper debate where we really understand what went wrong, why we lost people and how we can win them back.

ANDREW MARR:

So no great hurry? This could go to the autumn for instance, could it?

ED MILIBAND:

I think it's a matter for the NEC, but I would rather we had a proper contest, yeah.

ANDREW MARR:

Right. And at the end of it, there will be a different kind of Labour Party than the one we see now?

ED MILIBAND:

Yes. And actually the party itself has to change as well. It's got to reach out to people in a way that it hasn't in the past, and I think that's very important too.

ANDREW MARR:

Ed Miliband, for now thank you very much indeed.

ED MILIBAND:

Thank you.

INTERVIEW ENDS

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