Michael Gove - 'I want to make it work'

On Sunday 9 May Andrew Marr interviewed Michael Gove, Shadow Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families.

Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used.

ANDREW MARR:

Yesterday David Cameron described his overture to Nick Clegg on Friday as a "big, open and comprehensive offer" to the Liberal Democrats. How big? How open can it really be? The Conservative Leader says there's many areas of common ground between his newly enlarged party and the Liberal Democrats, which is true; but there's probably more that divides them - on changing the voting system and, above all, on the economy. So how much can the Conservatives give ground in the interests of forging a new political partnership? The Shadow Schools Secretary Michael Gove is a close friend of Mr Cameron's. He is not part of the team currently sitting through these talks, but he knows probably better than anybody else how the Conservative Leader is going to react. So I'm going to be talking to Mr Gove in just a moment. He's the man of course who may well be Education Secretary, I should add, within a couple of days. Sorry, he's just been miked up. Sorry about this. There we go, Mr Gove. Thank you for joining us …

MICHAEL GOVE:

Not at all.

ANDREW MARR:

… in these slightly frentic…frenatic … frenetic circumstances…..I can't even say it. Let's start with the election itself, given the high hopes of your party before the election campaign started, and again I sort of sense in the final days of the campaign, a bit of a blow that you haven't made it all the way to a full majority.

MICHAEL GOVE:

Well obviously we would have preferred to have a full majority, but I think most commentators before the election were emphasising that it was a really big ask for the Conservative Party to move from having fewer than 200 seats to having 326 or more. And in the end, we actually won more seats than at any time since the 1930s and we secured a swing broadly comparable to the swing that Margaret Thatcher had in 1979. So we're celebrating the fact that we have more than a hundred new colleagues coming into the House of Commons and we're celebrating the fact that David Cameron secured the biggest share of the vote - broadly similar, in fact I think actually slightly more, than Tony Blair secured five years ago.

ANDREW MARR:

These are all perfectly fair points to make and yet against them you might say the most unpopular Prime Minister for ages, a government widely seen to be tired, an economic crisis, you had much more money than anybody else, you had the press on your side by and large and you still couldn't make it. There must be a lot of Conservatives asking whether the campaign was fought as well as it should have been.

MICHAEL GOVE:

Well I do believe the campaign was fought very well. I think David Cameron won the campaign, and we saw during the course of the campaign, both in the debates that he triumphed and I think we also saw that the principal intellectual arguments about how the country needed to change - the argument that we needed to deal with waste, that we needed to avoid having tax increases at this time - I think those arguments were decisively won. And figures from outside politics - whether it was businessmen endorsing our position on national insurance and the need to avoid a tax on jobs, or whether it was people in education, headmasters in the state school system arguing that our changes and our greater degree of autonomy that we wanted to give them were the right way forward - I think we saw during the campaign people coming to our side. I'll acknowledge that we would rather have won an overall majority, but I do think that we won the campaign, we won the intellectual arguments, and David Cameron now has the right - and I think people recognise this - to try to lead a Conservative led government.

ANDREW MARR:

So let's turn to these negotiations which are starting. Can the Conservative Party in your view - you know the party well - can the Conservative Party stomach any real move towards voting reform?

MICHAEL GOVE:

Well I think we do need to reform our broken political system. You've just been talking to Ian Kennedy and we all know that this election took place against the long, dark shadow cast by the expenses scandal. We know that faith in our political system is at an all time low and we know that we need to change. Now there are different visions of change and there's an element of overlap there as well. We believe and we've argued for fairer votes on the basis of constituencies of equal size, and we've also argued for fundamental reform so that you can have a recall vote if you have a corrupt member of parliament and other changes in order to devolve power away from Westminster and closer to communities. In all of those areas there is common ground with the Liberal Democrats.

ANDREW MARR:

But the Liberal Democrats are not going to say okay, we will tick everything that you ask for on that. But if you say that you're not prepared to look at the voting system itself, they're going to have to walk away from this.

MICHAEL GOVE:

Well obviously the decision as to what the Liberal Democrats will do should be a matter for the Liberal Democrat Party.

ANDREW MARR:

But I'm asking you what the Conservative Party could swallow, in your view, on voting reform? For instance, if the Liberal Democrats asked for the alternative vote, the least extreme of the changes to be put to a referendum within a year or two, isn't that something the Conservatives should be able to live with given that they would be able … you would be able to go out there and argue the case for the first past the post system?

MICHAEL GOVE:

Well there are a variety of different changes to the voting system which have been put forward during the course of this campaign and you know will be discussed. The point that you make - the voting system that you cite, the alternative vote - actually risks being less proportional than the current system that we have at the moment. I think it's important to stress, however, that while …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) All I was asking is whether if there is an alternative voting system put forward by another party and they want a referendum on that, so that the people who are suspicious about the political system already get a chance to choose, is that something in your judgement the Conservatives could live with?

MICHAEL GOVE:

Well it's not a matter for my judgement as to which precise outcome from the negotiations that are going on …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) Sure, but you know your party pretty well.

MICHAEL GOVE:

I do, I do. And I think that one of the things that most people in the Conservative Party, the overwhelming majority of people in the Conservative Party want to see is strong and stable government. It was instructive that over the course of the last two days, there were statements of support for David Cameron's negotiating position, for example, from the Cornerstone group. The traditional right wing of the Conservative Party, they in true high Tory spirit would like to see a broad based and stable government formed, and they have given our leader the freedom to negotiate. During the course of this weekend, we've been talking to as many people in the parliamentary party and we've also been talking to those who supported David throughout the campaign, and again there's an understanding that the national interest must come first. But we all know …

ANDREW MARR:

Sure, but …

MICHAEL GOVE:

… that what's happening in the euro zone and in Greece, that we cannot afford to have a situation where we don't have as quickly as possible, a new government formed, taking the steps that we all know are necessary in order to put our economy back on track.

ANDREW MARR:

But your MPs who are meeting, you must be having the same conversations we're all hearing from Conservatives behind the scenes saying we will not go anywhere near PR; we just can't have that. We hate that as a party, we haven't talked about it as a party. That cannot be on the table.

MICHAEL GOVE:

Well I favour a form of voting that maintains the link between the member of parliament and his constituency. I think - and it was a purgative moment during the course of this campaign - when people were able to say look, I'm throwing you out. I think the same thing should apply, if at all possible, to the voting system that we have for that place.

ANDREW MARR:

Alright, okay.

MICHAEL GOVE:

But, I do not want to prejudice the negotiations that are going on. David Cameron is clear. Like me, he endorses the first past the post system, but we must not seek to prescribe now the outcome of precisely what sorts of changes might enhance public confidence in our political system.

ANDREW MARR:

Okay. Is a referendum thinkable?

MICHAEL GOVE:

Well again, you'll forgive me, Andrew, the negotiations …

ANDREW MARR:

Well no, I'm asking a very straight question here.

MICHAEL GOVE:

You are asking a very straight question, but the negotiations which are going on at the moment are ones that I would not want to prejudice.

ANDREW MARR:

Okay. Let's talk about the best and least bad outcomes that could come from these negotiations. On the one hand, you could have a coalition government. You could have Liberal Democrats …

MICHAEL GOVE:

Yes.

ANDREW MARR:

… sitting around the cabinet table with you. Could you contemplate a Liberal Democrat perhaps taking your job even as Education Secretary?

MICHAEL GOVE:

Yes. David Laws, who's the Liberal Democrat Education Spokesman, is someone who's - and I said this before the election result - thoughtful, flexible, someone who actually wants to improve our education system; and the ideas that he's put forward throughout this campaign, even though I don't agree with all of them, have been motivated by idealism.

ANDREW MARR:

And so you could live with, for instance … presumably free schools, your idea of free schools would be a red line?

MICHAEL GOVE:

Yes.

ANDREW MARR:

You would insist on that being part of whatever deal was …?

MICHAEL GOVE:

Well the Liberal Democrats have argued throughout that we should impose far less of a bureaucratic burden on our schools. They've agreed with us that the proposals that Ed Balls put forward to actually pile additional bureaucracy on our schools are the wrong way forward. I've found I think in education that I've voted more often with David in the division lobbies over there than he has with Ed. So certainly there is common ground there on which we can work.

ANDREW MARR:

Three or four or even five Liberal Democrats sitting around the cabinet table is a price that would be worth paying to get a stable government?

MICHAEL GOVE:

Well I'd like to see a stable government and it's not for me again to prescribe…..

ANDREW MARR:

(Finishes sentence)…exactly how many. But I'm saying….

MICHAEL GOVE:

.…whether it's 'Boodle' or 'Foodle' around the cabinet table. What I'd like to see is a spirit of cooperation, and to my mind the most important thing is that we have that government that can govern in the national interest. And I don't object to the fact that we can have Liberal Democrat voices helping to shape an agenda which we can all agree will help take us forward at a difficult time. Now the precise shape of cooperation between the Conservative Party and the Liberal Democrat Party is something that is up for grabs at the moment.

ANDREW MARR:

Sure.

MICHAEL GOVE:

That's why I have to be reticent. And I'm sorry, I know …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) I understand …

MICHAEL GOVE:

… and I know how irritating it is that I can't go into greater detail. But the spirit is willing, but I want to make sure …

ANDREW MARR:

What I'm trying …

MICHAEL GOVE:

… that we can form as strong a relationship as possible.

ANDREW MARR:

What I'm trying to do is just to see what the parameters are …

MICHAEL GOVE:

Of course.

ANDREW MARR:

… what the edges of the discussion are, if you like. And on one side you've conceded you could imagine cabinet ministers from the Liberal Democrats in a formal coalition. What about the notion that they say to your party, "Well we're not going to go into coalition with you. We're suspicious of some of the things you've said on the economy and other things, but we're going to let your budget through, we're going to let most of your Queen's Speech through and so on, and we're going to give you a couple of years to see how you can get on as a minority government"? Now that's clearly not as good from your point of view because it's less stable, but does it provide sufficiently stable government to ensure that people don't have to go through yet another General Election within a few months?

MICHAEL GOVE:

Yes, I think most of us don't want to go through another General Election. Ultimately we'd like to have a government proceeding on the most stable foundation possible …

ANDREW MARR:

Which would be coalition?

MICHAEL GOVE:

Well it's up to the Liberal Democrats to decide the basis on which they wish to proceed. And part of this process, part of this new politics is that we must be respectful of what the Liberal Democrats want to do as well. We're not attempting to sand bag or to manoeuvre them into a situation with which they are unhappy. We want to make sure that we can work together in the next few years, and that means that we need to listen to what Liberal Democrat priorities are and make sure that they have a fair opportunity to help shape the agenda for the future. While at the same time ensuring that the principles on which we fought the election, which are vital - the need to safeguard the recovery by staving off job destroying tax increases and the need also to ensure that you know our borders are secure - all of that has to be part of any agreement. Now, to your precise question as to whether or not it should be a minority government or a coalition, there may be options in between those two that suit both sides and provide the degree of stability and also the degree of collaboration …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) A sort of [ … ] concordat of some kind?

MICHAEL GOVE:

Again, you know we're in uncharted territory and the most important thing, I think, is we're going to have talks throughout today, from 11 o'clock onwards. So far the conversations have been constructive and amicable and I want to make sure that we can carry on in that way, and I don't want here or at any point to say to the Liberal Democrats this is what you must accept and this is what is ruled out. They know where we stand, but it's in the nature I think of the hand the electorate has dealt us that we should behave in a grown up …

ANDREW MARR:

Sure.

MICHAEL GOVE:

… and cooperative way, and we should not make 'the perfect' the enemy of 'the good'.

ANDREW MARR:

Sure. What would you say to those Conservatives who've fought very hard in this campaign watching, who are worried that this is going to be stitched up behind the scenes by the Westminster 'in crowd' who feel that the Conservative Party as an organisation isn't going to have any real say in what happens now?

MICHAEL GOVE:

Well I've been talking to the people who worked so hard on my re-election campaign about what they think should happen. I know that every newly elected Member of Parliament has been doing the same. David Cameron is going to say to every Member of Parliament that he can talk to them. If they wish to share with him on a one to one basis their thoughts, then that opportunity is there. They can pick up the phone. They can be in contact. The Shadow Cabinet has already discussed these proposals. We'll be discussing them again. So the broadest possible consultation is going on. And the encouraging thing is the extent …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) Have you spoken … Can I just ask? Have you spoken to David Cameron since his one on one's with Nick Clegg and what's he saying about that?

MICHAEL GOVE:

I haven't spoken to David since he talked to Nick Clegg last night. I spoke to someone who was there at that meeting who told me that things went very well. They were constructive and amicable. And I've talked to some members of the negotiating team who've been involved in the negotiations direct and who again say that the mood is good, that there's a willingness to try and sort things out in the national interest. What shape those eventual agreements you know form, we shall see.

ANDREW MARR:

You mentioned the economy, which is the huge issue confronting the country at the moment.

MICHAEL GOVE:

Yes.

ANDREW MARR:

Are you confident that any deal would allow the Conservative Party to make the earlier cuts that you say are vital for the markets and that you'll be able to do that hard economic heavy lifting despite being in a coalition government or a minority government?

MICHAEL GOVE:

I think there's a recognition on all sides that everything that's happened in the last week, the problems that we have in the Euro, the contagion across the European Union, they require us all to look hard at the economic situation and to take the steps necessary in order to give the markets confidence that tough decisions will be taken. And one of those steps is making sure that we have a deficit reduction package that can command confidence. And you have serious people in the Lib Dem negotiating team like David Laws who understand how the markets work, and I think that they will appreciate that any new government's going to have to take some tough but necessary decisions in order to get our economy back on track.

ANDREW MARR:

How quickly do you think this needs to be sewn up?

MICHAEL GOVE:

Well I think it's important that we show progress by tomorrow when the markets open, but again it's not for me to force the pace. It's important that both parties feel that any agreement is comfortable and will last. So again …

ANDREW MARR:

It sounds to me if I may say so, just judging by your tone of voice, that you are pretty optimistic this is going to come about; that some kind of arrangement between the two parties is going to happen, and that therefore this business of Nick Clegg turning instead to Gordon Brown and seeing what he can do on that side of the fence, what we were hearing about a rainbow coalition earlier on, that's not going to happen?

MICHAEL GOVE:

Well again, it's not for me to prescribe the eventual decision that Nick Clegg and his …

ANDREW MARR:

(over) I'm looking for instinct, that's all.

MICHAEL GOVE:

Well, I want to make it work. I mean you know there's a determination on the part of the Conservative negotiating team and actually on the part of the Conservative Party that we acknowledge that we're in a new political world and that in this new political world that we should behave constructively, that we should put nation first and party second. And I'd like to see an arrangement which the Liberal Democrats are happy with, and it's in the nature of any negotiation that you don't go in there, lay down the law, shove your papers onto the table and say, "Right, sign here." What you do is you say, "Look, you know what our priorities are, we have a sense of what yours are, how can we work together?"

ANDREW MARR:

And you as one of the leading lights of the new Conservatives - the Cameroons, say what you like - would be prepared to concede, to give up your cabinet seat to make this happen?

MICHAEL GOVE:

Yes.

ANDREW MARR:

Michael Gove, thank you very much indeed.

INTERVIEW ENDS

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