On Sunday 28 March Andrew Marr interviewed Shadow Schools Secretary Michael Gove. Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used. ANDREW MARR: Now a face we're going to be familiar with, seeing a lot more of in the coming weeks, Michael Gove is one of the masterminds of the Tory election campaign and Shadow Schools Secretary. Good morning to you. MICHAEL GOVE: Good morning, Andrew. ANDREW MARR: You heard Emma Thompson there saying we must have more plain speaking, and I'm looking forward to that. MICHAEL GOVE: Yes, it was a manual in how to communicate and it was absolutely crystal clear. And also I thought it was quite instructive, the way in which she said that the sort of way in which politicians talk is very different from the way in which ordinary people talk. And that's one of the difficulties, one of the barriers that we all have … ANDREW MARR: (over) Well let's try and … MICHAEL GOVE: … because the political game is played according to certain rules and trying to sort of break out of it is quite difficult sometimes. ANDREW MARR: Well let's try and stand to one side of the political game, if we may. I said at the beginning of the programme, you know you look at all the numbers and all the arithmetic about … MICHAEL GOVE: Yuh. ANDREW MARR: … and it is really quite scary, what we're faced with as a country. MICHAEL GOVE: It's tough - yuh, absolutely. ANDREW MARR: And yet your party and the Labour Party say we're going to take tough decisions and they talk about sort of things on the edge and a little bit of this and a little bit of that and don't really give us much of a clue as to what the next few years are going to be like, have to be like if we're going to get rid of this debt problem. MICHAEL GOVE: Well I'm not sure that's entirely fair. I know what you mean. People are demanding a greater degree of specificity. They want more detail and we will … ANDREW MARR: (over) Which is fair enough. MICHAEL GOVE: It is entirely fair, and we will be giving more detail before the election. That's absolutely clear. But I also think, to be fair to George Osborne, our Shadow Chancellor, he's already done something which I don't think any other Shadow Chancellor has done in opposition, which is to spell out the fact that there will have to be public spending restraint. In plain English, cuts. Now I know when politicians say, "I'm being honest", the natural tendency of journalists like you is to say: "Public, count the spoons, beware. Honesty actually means they're trying to hide something." But at our party conference last year, George spelled out the fact that the pension age was going to have to increase; that tax credits for some people, the wealthier, would have to go; and that there would have to be a pay freeze in the public sector. Now it's a brave man - and George is a brave man - who spells out in prime time that there are going to be reductions in public expenditure, and that some of the benefits that people have enjoyed as a result of growth are going to disappear. ANDREW MARR: My only point, I suppose, is when you talk about things like the pension age going up and so on, that's quite a way in the future. And in terms of getting money back from that, it's nothing like enough, so there's going to have to be a lot more spelt out. But you accept that? MICHAEL GOVE: I do accept that there has to be more detail and there will be more from George and David. But it's critical also that people understand why it is that we have to reduce public expenditure and what the values are which guide us. We need to reduce it because we as a nation have maxed out our credit card. We're at the limits of what we can borrow. We've seen countries like Portugal and Greece really suffer as a result of not bringing their public finances under control. But we also know at difficult times it's our responsibility to look after the poorest, which is why our public spending cuts - we made clear that for example with our pay freeze, that those who are at the lower end of the wage spectrum will be protected. ANDREW MARR: It's interesting that you jump to George Osborne's defence because one of the problems perhaps has been parties saying well the more honest we are, the more open we are about the bad news ahead … MICHAEL GOVE: Yeah. ANDREW MARR: … the more voters are worried and turned away from us. If you looking at polling in the marginal constituencies at the moment, the Conservatives are substantially behind Labour when it comes to handling of the economy and the deficit and people have not accepted the message yet that there have to be cuts. MICHAEL GOVE: Well I think all the polls over the course of this weekend and today show the Conservative lead increasing. Critically all the polls in the marginal seats show that there's been a bigger swing towards us in the marginals than elsewhere. But ultimately the experts on polling are the journalists and the critics and the commentators; not someone like me. I'm interested in making an argument. And George Osborne has been making an argument, which has prevailed. One of the striking things about the Budget last week is that the biggest centrepiece in it, which was the cut in stamp duty for first time buyers, was an idea that George unveiled three years ago. ANDREW MARR: Okay. MICHAEL GOVE: The very first thing that Alistair Darling did when he came in was to introduce a cut in inheritance tax just weeks after George Osborne had announced it. So if we're talking about ideas rather than polls - and I'm more interested in those - then George has been winning that argument consistently. And I think that the public recognise that even if not every commentator does. ANDREW MARR: I keep reading that your party will reverse if not all of the national insurance increase that Labour is proposing, at least the employers bit and possibly all of it. Is that true? MICHAEL GOVE: Well we're going to say more about national insurance in due course, and George and David will spell out our position there. ANDREW MARR: You're not going to say that you're going to increase it further, so you must be going to say that you're going to cut it? MICHAEL GOVE: They will say more. You can … I mean you know you want me to make an announcement today … ANDREW MARR: I do. I do, please! MICHAEL GOVE: … but I'm not … ANDREW MARR: By all means! MICHAEL GOVE: … but I'm not the person who's responsible for economic policy. ANDREW MARR: Alright. MICHAEL GOVE: That is George. There'll be a detail later. But the critical thing is we're concerned about tax increases that punish jobs and punish those companies that are going to stimulate growth. ANDREW MARR: Okay, it doesn't sound like you're going to increase it in that case. The columnist Janet Daley … MICHAEL GOVE: Yes. ANDREW MARR: … writing in the Sunday Telegraph today, makes a very strong case that actually the Conservative Party does have a clear strategy for government, which is frankly to break up the central state and the big Whitehall bureaucracy and pass much more power to people over schools, hospitals, but also welfare all the way down; but you just can't talk about it because you're frightened that Labour will misconstrue it and misrepresent it, but there is a radical, sort of Thatcher scale radical plan there. MICHAEL GOVE: Yes. Well … ANDREW MARR: Is that true? MICHAEL GOVE: It is certainly the case that whenever we try and make our argument Labour do seem to misconstrue it. ANDREW MARR: Yuh, push that to one side. MICHAEL GOVE: But I wouldn't say it was Thatcher scale. Obama scale, certainly in education. We do believe that there is a case for a greater devolution of power from the centre, and there is a difference of opinion between Ed Balls and myself. Now Ed is clear about it. He's a Fabian Socialist in the traditional centralising, the man in Whitehall knows best mould. That's fair enough. It is not my approach. ANDREW MARR: Are you an anti-stateist then? MICHAEL GOVE: No. I'm a decentraliser. I believe in trusting professionals. The key difference between us is embodied in the new legislation that Ed is bringing forward, which has a panoply of new regulations that schools will have to follow, all of them policed by the local government ombudsman. Well I believe the answer to improving education is not more powers for the local government ombudsman - very nice person though he may be. The way to improve education is to give parents more choice, and critically to give headmasters and headmistresses and those who work for them a greater deal of control over the institutions which they run. ANDREW MARR: Even if that means schools doing things that you as Education Secretary strongly disapprove of? That's the real question. MICHAEL GOVE: Yes. ANDREW MARR: Do you then intervene again? MICHAEL GOVE: Well if a school is underperforming, if a school is doing badly … ANDREW MARR: (over) You see, you then want to pull it back, pull the powers back. MICHAEL GOVE: No if there's failure, the state has a right to intervene … ANDREW MARR: Okay, right. MICHAEL GOVE: … but if the people want to do something differently, no. ANDREW MARR: Okay. MICHAEL GOVE: And I have strong views about what a good education is and what I want for my children, but if other people - other heads, other parents - follow a different course, then my view is that is a good thing. And that's not Ed's view. ANDREW MARR: Michael Gove - for now, thank you very much indeed. MICHAEL GOVE: Thank you. INTERVIEW ENDS
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