On Sunday 28 March Andrew Marr interviewed Archbishop of Westminster the Most Reverend Vincent Nichols. Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used. ANDREW MARR: He wanted to keep it secret. That's the charge made against the Pope last week by victims of a paedophile priest in America. They say that as Cardinal Ratzinger, then a senior figure in the Vatican, he ignored the pleas for the priest to be defrocked and may have halted an investigation. Allegations of abuse by Catholic priests have been erupting around the world - Ireland, Germany, Italy, South and North America. The Head of the Church in England and Wales, which has been mercifully on the sidelines of this story, says that what's happened is "shameful"; that abuse was not deliberately covered up. Archbishop Vincent Nichols is with me now. Good morning, Archbishop. ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS: Good morning to you. ANDREW MARR: I know you're off to conduct Palm Sunday Mass shortly. Can I ask you about the persistent allegations and fears that the Pope in his previous job as Head of the Congregation of the Faith was involved in these cover-ups; that there was a strong desire in the church, as somebody put it, not to wash our dirty linen in public? ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS: Well as far as the role of Cardinal Ratzinger's concerned, he was not involved in any cover-up. The case of the priest from America, for example, had already been reported to the police in 1975, and it was over 20 years, 25 years before it came to the attention of the Holy See. Because the role of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is to oversee the canonical legal procedures, not … ANDREW MARR: The church law? ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS: The church law. And in fact in the church law, it was Cardinal Ratzinger who pushed forward very substantial changes. So he pushed forward, for example, a fast track to defrock priests who have committed abuse. He changed the statute of limitations in church law. He changed the law so that offences, sexual offences committed with anyone under the age of 18 would be a crime in church law. So he pressed very hard. And then in 2001, he issued a document which made sure that bishops were not left on their own because they had to report these things canonically to the Holy See. But … ANDREW MARR: And yet, if I may say, around the world an astonishing number … ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS: Yes. ANDREW MARR: … of former victims are now coming forward expressing anger and grief. ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS: Yes. ANDREW MARR: Are you surprised by the scale of this? I mean it seems to have taken everyone by surprise. ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS: I'm not at all surprised by the anger and the dismay and the distress, and that is quite proper no matter the scale of it. One child abused is enough to create justifiable anger. But these things can be tackled. ANDREW MARR: I understand. The Head of the Church in Ireland, Cardinal Brady, was there when children who had been abused or people who'd been abused were sworn to secrecy. Do you think his position is now untenable? ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS: But again, it has to be understood. You know the media has a very proper role in invigilating, in looking at what's going on and bringing things to the surface, and I totally accept that role of the media. But the media also needs to be a bit more attentive to detail, so the secrecy that is concerning … that's around the cardinal in Ireland was the secrecy for the process of a trial. It's like giving victims anonymity in the course of a trial. Now they think … ANDREW MARR: (over) But they then have to swear secrecy forever after … ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS: Well … ANDREW MARR: … which is quite something if you've been the victim of something like this. ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS: No, I don't agree with that, and they shouldn't. ANDREW MARR: They shouldn't swear secrecy? ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS: No, they should not. And those things should be reported to the police. As I say, in the document from the Holy See, there is absolutely nothing that prevents bishops reporting crimes to the police; and in fact since 2001, consistently the Holy See has urged bishops to do that. ANDREW MARR: Looking ahead at what could be done about it - because this is clearly quite close to running out of control for your church - there have been a series of suggestions made. The most extreme one is that the Pope should resign. Now, as I understand it, no pope has resigned for nearly a thousand years, so that seems unlikely. ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS: No, the Pope won't resign. Frankly, there's no strong reason for him to do so. In fact it's the other way around: he is the one above all else in Rome who has tackled these things head on. ANDREW MARR: Do you think he needs to make a stronger and more public apology on behalf of the church for what's happened? ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS: Well I think what we have done in this country is actually quite instructive. And over ten years we have put in place procedures in every parish, with external supervision, to make sure that any allegations, no matter how far back they come from, are handled in an open and in a transparent way. And it was Lord Nolan who started off on this track for us. ANDREW MARR: Yes. ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS: He who, if you remember, conducted inquiries into standards in public life. ANDREW MARR: In England and Wales, you have been mercifully spared from most of this. ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS: Well no, no - no, we haven't. We've had our fair share of abuse, but we've handled it properly. ANDREW MARR: Right. ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS: You see abuse, child abuse is probably the most hidden crime, and these things will continue to emerge. But people have to remember that 75% of abuse in this country is within the family. It takes a long time to emerge. ANDREW MARR: Do you think the Pope himself - because that is really who people want to hear from at this point - should make a public apology or a further statement? ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS: I think he will make sure that bishops' conferences one by one deal with this matter. What we have learned is two things. One is you must put the interests of the child first. In English law, it was called the 'paramountcy principle'. ANDREW MARR: Yes. ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS: That is absolutely right. That must come first. And, secondly, there must be procedures which are evident and evidently just in order to win support. They're our two lessons. It's a long, hard slog and it can be done. ANDREW MARR: Possibly a special gathering of bishops to discuss this, do you think? Is that possible? ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS: Well I've not heard of that suggestion. ANDREW MARR: Okay. Let me ask you about some other things. First of all, the story we were discussing earlier on in the papers - Anglican leaders, in particular, thinking … arguing that Christians in this country are close to being treated in a sort of slightly abusive way; that they're being pushed aside by politics and not taken properly seriously, whether because people are stopped from wearing crosses at work or because of some of the new proposals on sex education in schools. What's your reaction? ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS: I wouldn't have signed that letter. I quite understand the irritation and I think the lack of proportion, the lack of balance over issues of people wearing a crucifix because it's a well established ancient tradition. But I think the picture is mixed actually. For example, in the Equalities Bill, there was a definition of employment. Now we had talked to the government and to civil servants for a long time, but they refused to as it were listen and that was part of the problem. In the end, the law has remained unchanged. But there was a lot of public conflict, which could have been avoided with a more cooperative stance from government. ANDREW MARR: As the Catholic Church, you have produced something that looks almost like an election manifesto for Catholics before they decide how to vote, and you've said very much that government has been trying to do too much in terms of bringing up children; that this is the job of families, and that there should be more emphasis on family. Which sounds pretty much like a nod towards the Conservatives. ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS: Well you know words are always interpreted, and what we want to do is very much say every citizen has responsibilities for the quality of life and, therefore, we do all need to play our part and not throw everything onto the government. But it's right about the families, and over and over again we see the evidence to suggest that when there is a marriage at the heart of a family, it is more stable and it is more beneficial to children. ANDREW MARR: And do you think this government has done enough to support the family? ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS: Well I quite understand how the government has done a great deal to support the family, but the question is the support of marriage at the heart of the family. ANDREW MARR: And on that then, has the government done enough? ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS: I think there's a whole variety of ways in which this can be done. Preparing people for marriage is one. Giving support to families and marriages through schools is another. And trying to as it were create a more realistic expectation about marriage rather than have it as a celebrity moment alone. ANDREW MARR: The Pope is coming to this country later in the year. Preparations beginning to be pretty far advanced for that? ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS: They're beginning … ANDREW MARR: Can you tell us a little bit about that? ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS: Well they're beginning to cause me a little bit of anxiety. But of course this is a state visit, so the invitation has come from the Queen and the government and we're working very closely. And what we want to do is give the opportunities to the Holy Father, at the invitation of the Queen, to address British society. He's not coming simply to visit the Catholic community, but to offer a message, to offer support and encouragement to British society and the role of faith within it. ANDREW MARR: And just finally on the difficult subject we were discussing right at the beginning. Some people say that actually the burden on priests of celibacy in the modern world, with all its messages and its images, is too much. It's out of date and perhaps allowing priests to get married and have a normal sex life might be … the time for that might be coming. ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS: Well it's certainly nothing to do with child abuse because, as I say, the vast majority of child abuse takes place by married men. So that aside, I think the challenge of celibacy is demanding and it is difficult, but priests are given great support and I think it is an important sign in society that we're called to a destiny that takes us beyond the realities of this world. ANDREW MARR: Archbishop, called now to take mass. ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS: I am indeed. ANDREW MARR: Thank you very much indeed for joining us this morning. ARCHBISHOP NICHOLS: My pleasure. Thank you. INTERVIEW ENDS
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