On Sunday 21 March Andrew Marr interviewed Scotland's First Minister Alexander Salmond. Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used. ANDREW MARR: Well according to the Scottish Nationalist Party, the people of Scotland want more than just a politician. They want local and national champions. One man who sees himself as that kind of champion is the SNP Leader, the First Minister Alex Salmond. His General Election war cry is: "More Nats means less cuts." Mr Salmond joins me now from Aviemore where the SNP conference is taking place. Welcome. Thank you for joining us, Mr Salmond. ALEX SALMOND: Good morning, Andrew. ANDREW MARR: "More Nats means less cuts." Given the awesomely bad state of public finances, how can that be so? ALEX SALMOND: Well actually the pressure we're putting on to secure next week's … next year's budget in Scotland is already working, Andrew, because the London parties are now scrambling to revise their positions. Even the Tories are starting to give us indications they're not going to cut next year's Scottish budget either centrally or local authorities in response to the pressure we've been putting on. But I think it's absolutely vital that we don't choke off recovery not just in Scotland but across the UK, and I think it would be suicidal in economic terms to start chopping away at public spending when the economy is engaged in an extremely sensitive and faltering recovery at the present moment. So it's not only a good argument for the people of Scotland. It's a good argument economically as well. ANDREW MARR: And yet during the economic crisis Scotland has lost more jobs, has recovered more slowly, done worse in almost every way than other parts of the UK. Now that's happened under your administration aegis. Why's that? ALEX SALMOND: Well I think you're a bit misinformed, Andrew. I mean Scottish unemployment is lower than the rest of the UK. Our economic activity rates are higher; our employment rates are higher. ANDREW MARR: (over) Just gone up by 33,000. ALEX SALMOND: But Scotland has suffered grievously and we've had in February claimant count figures; the first turndown in unemployment in Scotland for two years. So our entire point is if you look at these figures in Scotland and of course the rest of the country, this is no time to start chopping away at public spending. This is a time, like every other major economy incidentally, to continue for fiscal stimulus because you cannot cut your way out of recession. You can cut your way into a double dip recession, incidentally, but you can't cut your way out of recession. ANDREW MARR: But isn't it the case that your overall grand plan for Scotland as part of an arc of prosperity with its hugely powerful banks and so on has been blown to pieces by what has happened, and that that is now being reflected in the polls? The Scottish people, according to the polls, seem to be less keen on your party and less keen on independence. You've spent £9 million preparing for the independence referendum; and the brutal truth, isn't it, that you're not going to get it? You're not going to get that through the Parliament? ALEX SALMOND: Well, Andrew, I'm sort of staggered that you're not aware that if we held a referendum, then that would be the cost of the referendum. We haven't spent it yet, Andrew. That would be the cost of holding a referendum, which would be a lot better value, for example, than the referendum on the alternative vote, which is planned by the Labour Party if they were to be re-elected. But when you talk about the arguments for a … ANDREW MARR: (over) But you ain't going to get it, are you? ALEX SALMOND: Well, Andrew, you've asked a question, so I'm just going to point out that any poll, every poll indicates that the support for the Scottish National Party has advanced since the 2005 election not just a considerable amount but more than any other party across these islands, including the Tories, in the opinion polls. So you know the robust shape of the Scottish National Party is decadent. We're going to gain very substantial ground in this election campaign. And finally I'll just remind you, in the last two elections in Scotland - in 2007, for the first time in 50 years, the Labour Party was beaten by the SNP; and we repeated that trick last year in the European Elections where we beat them again - and, therefore, it's not unreasonable for us to go for a hat trick at this upcoming General Election, Andrew. ANDREW MARR: Well the latest You Gov poll puts you almost level pegging with the Conservative Party, which anyone who knows Scottish politics will find that pretty astonishing. ALEX SALMOND: Well it doesn't, Andrew. The latest You Gov poll … ANDREW MARR: (over) 20, 21. ALEX SALMOND: … was two days ago, which put us … No, it was 24% for the SNP and 17% for the Tories. But that wasn't a full opinion poll, incidentally, Andrew. That was a collection of sub-samples. The last full opinion poll in Scotland was a Mori poll, which put the SNP at 32%, which is up from 17% in 2005. A massive increase of support - only 2% behind the Labour Party and not far off double the support of the Conservative Party. But, listen, this election ain't going to be won in opinion polls even though opinion polls are very good for the SNP at the present moment. This election is going to be won on arguments. And the argument we're putting forward about the SNP as local and national champions of Scotland is a very, very powerful one indeed … ANDREW MARR: So, so do you still … ALEX SALMOND: … and I think a lot of people - not just in Scotland, Andrew - rather like the message of why don't we protect things that matter like education and health spending, and stop planning to spend billions, a hundred thousand million on things that don't matter, which are dangerous, like Trident nuclear missiles and submarines dumped in the River Clyde. ANDREW MARR: So would you still stick by a prediction you made some time back that the SNP could win another 20 seats at this election? ALEX SALMOND: Well it's 20 seats in total, Andrew. ANDREW MARR: 20 in total, yeah. ALEX SALMOND: That's our aim and target for this election. ANDREW MARR: And that's still your target? ALEX SALMOND: Yeah, that's still our target. That's a big target, it's an ambitious target, but we've learned over the last three years it's best to be ambitious as a party - ambitious for the people of Scotland - and try to make a decisive breakthrough that would make a big difference to things that really matter in Scotland like education, health spending, reinvesting in our economy. Which is why the slogan "More Nats, less cuts" is more than slogan. It's going to be a clarion call for the people in this election campaign. ANDREW MARR: You've also spoken about Westminster, if there's a hung parliament, dancing to a Scottish jig. What would be your conditions? If the Conservative Party or the Labour Party came to you in a hung parliament situation and said we'd like you to support us, what would be your bottom line? ALEX SALMOND: Well, as you know, I've probably got more experience than anyone else in these islands about how to deal with a hung parliament situation. (laughing) As First Minister of Scotland, I've been doing that (quite successfully, I think) for the last three years in the Scottish Parliament. And what I've learned is the most effective way to go about that situation, looking at the point of view of a minority party, is not to get into a coalition. We certainly wouldn't go into coalition with either the Tories or the Labour Party; neither Tweedledum, nor Tweedledee. But instead we'd use our influence in vital votes to extract key concessions for Scotland and indeed for our Plaid Cymru allies in Wales. And, therefore, when we publish … ANDREW MARR: What sort of conditions? ALEX SALMOND: … well when we publish our programme for the next Parliament, jointly with Plaid Cymru, a week on Wednesday in a London press conference, I know that you'll be there, Andrew, because that event will be of significance not just to the people of Scotland and Wales but to anybody looking at the potential configurations of the next Westminster Parliament. ANDREW MARR: But what about the concessions? Sorry, just to press you on that. I mean what kind of things would you be looking for the other parties to agree to? More money for Scotland, more money for Wales? ALEX SALMOND: Well certainly resistance of the cuts that we've spoken about, and certainly the argument, like every other economy in the Western world, to actually have a fiscal stimulus this coming year. That's where we think the real debate should be centred on as opposed to this phoney war that's taking place between Labour and Tory. But to give you one other example, I think we'd be arguing that the fast Rail link that's being proposed - a thoroughly good idea - should not be a fast Rail link between Edinburgh … between London and Birmingham, but should be a genuine fast Rail link across these islands. So pressure on areas such as that will be very, very important. ANDREW MARR: Right. ALEX SALMOND: But the general tenor of the approach of the SNP and Plaid Cymru will be to spend public money on things that matter to help the economy; not to waste billions on the Trident missile programme or indeed the remnants of the identity card programme. Let's dispense with that and focus public money … ANDREW MARR: Okay. ALEX SALMOND: … on things that matter. ANDREW MARR: One final, quick question. Mr Al Megrahi seems to be in rude good health and improving, according to the Libyans. What is your feeling about that? ALEX SALMOND: Well Mr Al Megrahi has a terminal condition. Of that, there is no question whatsoever. We've said that we wouldn't have a running commentary on his health, but there is absolutely no doubt that Mr Al Megrahi has a terminal illness and that Mr Al Megrahi will die. And you know that's just the reality, and I would be very dubious about accepting second or third hand press reports on his condition. ANDREW MARR: Alright. Alex Salmond, thank you very much indeed for joining us and return to your conference in Aviemore. Many thanks. INTERVIEW ENDS
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