On Sunday 7 March Andrew Marr interviewed Leader of the House of Commons Harriet Harman. Please note 'The Andrew Marr Show' must be credited if any part of this transcript is used. ANDREW MARR: Now of course the Tories aren't the only party with wealthy friends. Official figures show that several million pounds has rolled into Labour coffers over the past few months - about half of which came from a handful of donors whose tax status is also the subject of speculation - and Labour receives millions of pounds every year from its affiliated trade unions. Well I'm joined now by the party's Deputy Leader Harriet Harman. Welcome. HARRIET HARMAN: Good morning. ANDREW MARR: You had some pretty hard words to say about Lord Ashcroft in the House of Commons. So much so that I think if you repeated them outside, he might sue you for libel. But can I ask about Labour's donors - people like Lord Paul, people like Mr Bollinger, people like the … I can read out a whole long list of them, and you know them as well - many of whom appear to be non-doms themselves? HARRIET HARMAN: Well I think the issue in relation to Lord Ashcroft and what makes it very different from anybody who's donated to other parties, including the Labour Party, is that he got his peerage on the basis of an assurance - an assurance that he would be domiciled for tax purposes and pay full tax in this country; and indeed William Hague said that he would pay tens of millions of pounds to the Treasury. And it's that breaking of that assurance which really casts a very big question over David Cameron's judgement. And as to the fact that David Cameron has said the Tory Party has changed, it appears they haven't changed at all. ANDREW MARR: But in the end, this is a rich man who's been a tax exile during quite a lot of his career funding a political party, which is what concerns you, and all I'm saying to you is that you're in exactly the same position. HARRIET HARMAN: No, he's Deputy Chair of the Conservative Party. He's not any old donor. He's Deputy Chair of the Conservative Party and he made an assurance, an assurance which enabled him to get into the House of Lords. And everybody was led to believe by David Cameron and by William Hague that he kept that assurance and that tens of millions of pounds would be paid because he would bring all his tax affairs here. So the difference is that he made an assurance and he's Deputy Chair of the Conservative Party. And the real question is why hasn't David Cameron sacked him as Deputy Chair of the Conservative Party if he kept David Cameron in the dark for all these years? ANDREW MARR: Is Lord Paul a non-dom? HARRIET HARMAN: Well his tax status is a matter for him, and it's not … ANDREW MARR: Oh come, come! HARRIET HARMAN: No, no, listen, Andrew. It's not unlawful for people who are non-dom to donate to parties. They've got … ANDREW MARR: So you think he is? HARRIET HARMAN: Everybody's got to stay within the law. ANDREW MARR: So you think he is? HARRIET HARMAN: Well I don't know. ANDREW MARR: What about Sir Ronald Cohen? HARRIET HARMAN: Just listen a second. The difference between Lord Paul and Lord Ashcroft is not a question … It's a question of the assurance that was given. ANDREW MARR: (over) The public has a right to know if non-doms are paying large amounts of money … HARRIET HARMAN: (over) No … ANDREW MARR: … into the Labour Party's coffers. HARRIET HARMAN: No, the public … No, the public has a right to know and indeed it's very important that everybody who donates to political parties does so within the law. ANDREW MARR: Which is what Lord Ashcroft has done. HARRIET HARMAN: But the difference with Lord Ashcroft is an assurance was made in order for him to get into the House of Lords. And it's a question of whether that assurance was actually broken and when David Cameron discovered that assurance was broken, so we're satisfied that the donors to the Labour Party, it's out in the public domain who's donated to the Labour Party and they're doing so within the law. ANDREW MARR: Is Sir Ronald Cohen a non-dom? HARRIET HARMAN: Well people's tax … I genuinely don't know, but what I would know and be satisfied … ANDREW MARR: (over) Shouldn't you know? HARRIET HARMAN: No, what … ANDREW MARR: Given the sensitivity of this issue … HARRIET HARMAN: No. ANDREW MARR: … shouldn't you know and shouldn't you tell us? HARRIET HARMAN: No. What I should tell you is that those people who've donated to the Labour Party have done so within the law. But the question about Lord Ashcroft is about … ANDREW MARR: Mr Bollinger? Non-dom? HARRIET HARMAN: Well I don't know. You can carry on asking me about … ANDREW MARR: Well … HARRIET HARMAN: … any individual, and I can tell you that anybody … ANDREW MARR: And you're not going to tell us before the election how many non-doms, and who they are, are contributing money to your election campaign? HARRIET HARMAN: Everything that is required to be known - and we've made the law … ANDREW MARR: This is why the public are so angry about politics, is it not? HARRIET HARMAN: No, let me just … Let me say the question about judgement here and the question about trust and credibility here is about an assurance that was given in order for Lord Ashcroft to be in the House of Lords. Swraj Paul did not given an assurance because he didn't be asked to give an assurance because there wasn't doubts about him in the way that there were about Lord Ashcroft. That's why when William Hague proposed Lord Ashcroft for the Lords, they said no he can't come into the Lords unless he gives these assurances; and William Hague said he will pay tens of millions of tax. And it turns out although last Sunday David Cameron … ANDREW MARR: Yuh, we have made this point. HARRIET HARMAN: Well except that this is the really key difference and I don't want you to give … ANDREW MARR: (over) Well let me ask another key difference. HARRIET HARMAN: … anybody any impression that we're not being completely open about the … ANDREW MARR: Well you're not being completely open because you won't tell us whether these people are non-doms. HARRIET HARMAN: No, but there is some … The tax status of donors is not an issue for electoral law and therefore they're within … ANDREW MARR: It might be an issue for voters though. HARRIET HARMAN: Well you know people's tax affairs is a private matter unless they've given assurances … ANDREW MARR: Okay. HARRIET HARMAN: … which is the only person who's done that is Lord Ashcroft. ANDREW MARR: The other larger part of your funding of course comes from the trade unions … HARRIET HARMAN: Yes. ANDREW MARR: … 56% in the last year. Given that the Chancellor is currently drawing up plans, we read, to cut back in the public sector, isn't that actually the biggest conflict of interest of all - that so much of your money is coming from people whose jobs and whose pensions you are now obliged, particularly if you're re-elected, to threaten? HARRIET HARMAN: Not at all, and we strongly support the public services and people who work in the public services. And actually there's all the difference in the world between millions of people at their work through their trade unions voting to actually have their trade unions donate to the Labour Party and one millionaire giving money and breaking an assurance. So there's all the difference in the world. ANDREW MARR: Yes. HARRIET HARMAN: And it's completely open and transparent, the relationship between the trade unions and the Labour Party. And their donating status is, as I say, not only open but very highly regulated. ANDREW MARR: Let me come on and ask you about something very live in today's newspapers, and indeed yesterday's, which is the story that Jon Venables was actually guilty of a child pornographic offence and that that was the reason he was - alleged pornographic offence - and that was the reason he was brought back into custody. HARRIET HARMAN: Well you've seen what the Justice Secretary has said about this … ANDREW MARR: Yes. HARRIET HARMAN: … and everybody will know that the court at the time they sentenced Jon Venables said that he should have anonymity. And the important thing is that - and I've got to tread carefully here because I don't want to … I don't want to sort of jeopardise the criminal justice system - if, if there's a question of an offence having been committed, then it needs to be properly investigated and anybody who's committed an offence needs to be brought to trial. And we don't want anything to happen whereby they can't be brought to trial because then it's said well they can't get a fair trial because all the media reporting has been prejudiced. And I think Jack Straw has said he would like to be as open as possible, but he has to comply by the court's judgement and he doesn't want to say anything which would prevent somebody being brought to justice and being brought to trial by court. ANDREW MARR: (over) I should say … Exactly. I should say this is a claim about an alleged offence in a newspaper, but you're not saying that it's all rubbish, are you? HARRIET HARMAN: Well I'm not saying whether it's true or not because actually I don't want to comment on it. What I'm just saying is that at the time that Venables was sentenced, it was said that he should keep his anonymity. And as a general principle, we want to make absolutely sure that nobody can get off a criminal offence by saying, "I can't get a fair trial. There's been too much publicity." So both of those issues are at stake. ANDREW MARR: Hung parliament. We've talked a lot about it already on this programme. Have there been conversations between the Labour Party at any level and the Liberal Democrats at any level about some cooperation in that event? HARRIET HARMAN: Well no because what we're doing is we're fighting to win, and we've got a very clear sense that we want a future fair for everyone in Britain. We've set out our campaign … … ANDREW MARR: (over) So no conversations? HARRIET HARMAN: We're fighting and we're fighting to win. We're not fighting to get halfway there, Andrew. ANDREW MARR: Vince Cable said that he could sit in a Cabinet alongside other people. Your predecessor as Deputy Leader, John Prescott, famously said that he would never sit alongside some expletive deleted Liberal Democrat in a Cabinet. Could you sit alongside people like Vince Cable? HARRIET HARMAN: Well we're trying to get the support of the British people, so that it's Labour people in the Cabinet. And ultimately it's a big choice for the British people at this election, and we're saying take another look at … take a second look at the Labour Party and take a long, hard look at the Tories before you vote. ANDREW MARR: Alright. For now, Harriet Harman thank you very much indeed for coming in. INTERVIEW ENDS
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